From: "David Torno" Received: from atl4mhob06.registeredsite.com ([209.17.115.44] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTP id 7228653 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 22:24:39 +0100 Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail04pod0.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.206]) by atl4mhob06.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x0ALXpLH012564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:33:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 19062 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jan 2019 21:33:51 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 137.25.60.152 X-Authenticated-UID: torno@sydefxink.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.0.1.6?) (torno@sydefxink.com@137.25.60.152) by 0 with ESMTPA; 10 Jan 2019 21:33:51 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6DC9AE16-3E6F-4092-984B-9B8206F3EDEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:33:49 -0800 Subject: Re: [AE] Clients requesting RAW files Message-Id: <4DBD45D7-7982-40FE-A393-F2B9CD9C7A09@sydefxink.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: After Effects Mail List X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14A456) --Apple-Mail-6DC9AE16-3E6F-4092-984B-9B8206F3EDEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to hear this has been your experience Adam. And everyone else that fee= ls they have no choice but to concede due to clients threats. I get it, we a= ll have to eat and pay the bills. Sadly this is becoming a trend because it has been allowed for too long to b= ecome one. Too many artists have "given up" and therefore the unwritten poli= cy of those in powerful positions with a greedy appetite has simply been acc= epted as absolute rule by a lot of workers. It does boil down to each persons experience. Some have allowed themselves t= o be abused for the sake of survival, and others have fought in the name of t= hat very same survival. For myself, I have stood my ground the best I can. Some wins some losses. I'= ve declined work before while actively working at a studio due to the nature= of it's content. I respectfully terminated a contract three days early beca= use of it. Offering the lost days cost back to the client so they could find= a replacement for that particular project. It was the only respectable thin= g to do since I terminated the work and not them. I've been booked by them m= ultiple times since. I've lost clients and have gained more. There will alwa= ys be somebody in need of something. I've chosen to stick with the respectab= le ones. My feelings are that if you (to any client) believe abuse and disrespect of t= he skill and talents required, are trivial and that anyone can do it nowaday= s because of computers. Then by all means find someone else that is willing t= o take the abuse, stress, health implications, and risks of non payment. Those client mindsets will always exist, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't= stand your ground and respect yourself and the hard work you do that ultima= tely makes the client a hell of a lot more money than you'll get out of it. The advances of technology certainly have made access to post-production too= ls easier, but not the education of the user nor proficiency in using said t= ools better. If the human is just clicking buttons and not thinking of the b= ig picture, it fails. Every time. I know it will not change things simply by saying all this, but I'd hope tha= t more artists flooding into this industry (at a ridiculous rate) will at le= ast think about doing better for themselves by doing better for the industry= as a whole. My two cents. David Torno 818.391.6060 -------------------- www.sydefxink.com (work history) https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & breakdowns) https://gumroad.com/davidtorno http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno (tutorials) "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" -Charles Field > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam Mercado wrote= : >=20 > This has become a trend in my experience, over the years clients have come= to expect/demand everything.=20 >=20 > The question is not whether you need to hand over everything to them, the q= uestion is whether you want to work with them again. Stand your ground and t= hey will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s not like this stuff is difficult= anymore. The software and hardware has removed so many pain points over the= years that what we do is basically a commodity. I learned that the hard way= , after asking the very same question several times. Every time I stood my g= round I never worked with that client again. Whether there was a contract or= not.=20 >=20 > And even with the contract, if I ever stood my ground in contract negotiat= ions, the point of contention was always raw files. They want them, don=E2=80= =99t want to pay more for them, if I stood my ground it was bye bye.=20 >=20 > So I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle. If they=E2=80= =99re going to take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re going to do so= one way or another. I may as well make a few bucks off them before they go.= And they may even stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing battle either way as far as I= can tell. Others may have more positive experience but to me that=E2=80=99s= the way the game is played out these days >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David Torno wrote= : >>=20 >> Raw files are NOT part of deliverables unless that was explicitly agreed u= pon in the contract up front by all parties involved. >>=20 >> This applies regardless of it being a company or an individual freelancer= contracted for the work. >>=20 >> These are details that must be made clear at the beginning unfortunately t= hough. Discussing these details after the fact presents very awkward situati= ons like this that can and usually leave a bad taste in both parties mouths.= Jeopardizing any future collaboration. >>=20 >> Many clients have a misconception that any and all files related to the p= rocess are theirs for the taking. That is incorrect. They must understand th= at they are contracting a company or individual to produce a single FINAL pr= oduct. If they want versions, they pay for that work. They want to archive? T= hen they can pay you to do so. Yes handing over those files will guarantee t= hat they will reuse them later and by a cheaper individual too. I see it hap= pen a lot. >>=20 >> If you are willing to give away your proprietary work, tools, or unique t= echniques for free or even for compensation... that is something only you ca= n choose to do. >>=20 >> Good luck. >>=20 >>=20 >> David Torno >> 818.391.6060 >> -------------------- >> www.sydefxink.com (work history) >> https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & breakdowns) >> https://gumroad.com/davidtorno >> http://provideocoalition.com/dtorno (tutorials) >>=20 >> "The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh" >> -Charles Field >>=20 >>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers wr= ote: >>>=20 >>> I know this has been discussed many times before, but increasingly clien= ts expect/request all files from projects - including Illustrator, photoshop= , stock footage and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files. >>> =20 >>> Is this a trend? It has been happening also with clients that we are the= agency of record with. I am uncomfortable giving away intellectual property= for free and having some freelancer undercutting us using our files! >>> =20 >>> Thoughts? >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Mike Powers >>> https://vimeo.com/mpowers >>>=20 >>> 3DBOXX W8920Processor 32.0 GB RAM=20 >>> Dual Xeon CPU E5-2670 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Proce= ssor(s) >>> Windows 10 Enterprise - 1734 >>> NVIDIA GTX TITAN Black RAM 6.0 GB Driver Version 471.35 >>> =20 >>> =20 --Apple-Mail-6DC9AE16-3E6F-4092-984B-9B8206F3EDEE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to hear this has been your exper= ience Adam. And everyone else that feels they have no choice but to concede d= ue to clients threats. I get it, we all have to eat and pay the bills.
=

Sadl= y this is becoming a trend because it has been allowed for too long to becom= e one. Too many artists have "given up" and therefore the unwritten policy o= f those in powerful positions with a greedy appetite has simply been accepte= d as absolute rule by a lot of workers.
=
It does boil down to each persons e= xperience. Some have allowed themselves to be abused for the sake of surviva= l, and others have fought in the name of that very same survival.

For myself= , I have stood my ground the best I can. Some wins some losses. I've decline= d work before while actively working at a studio due to the nature of it's c= ontent. I respectfully terminated a contract three days early because of it.= Offering the lost days cost back to the client so they could find a replace= ment for that particular project. It was the only respectable thing to do si= nce I terminated the work and not them. I've been booked by them multiple ti= mes since. I've lost clients and have gained more. There will always be some= body in need of something. I've chosen to stick with the respectable ones.

= My feelings are that if you (to any client) believe abuse and disrespect of t= he skill and talents required, are trivial and that anyone can do it nowaday= s because of computers. Then by all means find someone else that is willing t= o take the abuse, stress, health implications, and risks of non payment.

Th= ose client mindsets will always exist, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't s= tand your ground and respect yourself and the hard work you do that ultimate= ly makes the client a hell of a lot more money than you'll get out of it.

T= he advances of technology certainly have made access to post-production tool= s easier, but not the education of the user nor proficiency in using said to= ols better. If the human is just clicking buttons and not thinking of the bi= g picture, it fails. Every time.

I know it will not change things simply by= saying all this, but I'd hope that more artists flooding into this industry= (at a ridiculous rate) will at least think about doing better for themselve= s by doing better for the industry as a whole.

My two cents.

David T= orno
818.391.6060
--------------------
www.sydefxink.com (work history)
https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & break= downs)

"The most useless day is that in which we do n= ot laugh"
-Charles Field

On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Adam Mercado <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote= :

This has become a trend in my exp= erience, over the years clients have come to expect/demand everything. =

The question is not whether you need to hand over everyt= hing to them, the question is whether you want to work with them again. Stan= d your ground and they will do find someone else. It=E2=80=99s not like this= stuff is difficult anymore. The software and hardware has removed so many p= ain points over the years that what we do is basically a commodity. I learne= d that the hard way, after asking the very same question several times. Ever= y time I stood my ground I never worked with that client again. Whether ther= e was a contract or not. 

And even with the co= ntract, if I ever stood my ground in contract negotiations, the point of con= tention was always raw files. They want them, don=E2=80=99t want to pay more= for them, if I stood my ground it was bye bye. 

So I=E2=80=99ve learned long ago to stop fighting that battle. If they=E2= =80=99re going to take my files to someone else, they=E2=80=99re going to do= so one way or another. I may as well make a few bucks off them before they g= o. And they may even stay. It=E2=80=99s a losing battle either way as far as= I can tell. Others may have more positive experience but to me that=E2=80=99= s the way the game is played out these days






On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:23 AM, David T= orno <AE-List@media-motion.tv<= /a>> wrote:




David Torno
81= 8.391.6060
--------------------
www.sydefxink.com (work history)
https://vimeo.com/davidtorno (work samples & breakdowns)

"The most useless day is that in which we do not laugh"
-Charles Field
=

On Jan 10, 2019, at 8:41 AM, Michael Powers <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

=

I know this has been discussed many times before, but= increasingly clients expect/request all files from projects - including Ill= ustrator, photoshop, stock footage and music, AfterFX, and 3ds MAX files.

 

Is this a trend? It has been happening also with clie= nts that we are the agency of record with. I am uncomfortable giving away in= tellectual property for free and having some freelancer undercutting us usin= g our files!

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Mike Powers<= /span>
https://vimeo.com/mpowers

3DBOXX W8920Processor=           32.0 GB RAM = ;

Dual Xeon CPU E5-2670= 0 @ 2.60GHz, 2601 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)=

Windows 10 Enterprise= - 1734

NVIDIA GTX TITAN Blac= k RAM  6.0 GB     Driver Version  471.35<= o:p>

 

 

= --Apple-Mail-6DC9AE16-3E6F-4092-984B-9B8206F3EDEE--