From: "Steve Oakley" Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7241204 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 08 Feb 2019 05:29:35 +0100 Received: from [10.1.1.115] ([71.87.57.30]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus001 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LoXz2-1hLGMF3AEc-00gPYv for ; Fri, 08 Feb 2019 05:39:46 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_745C3271-62FD-4429-8797-AEF4C387D6F7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 22:39:41 -0600 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <88691DA2-9454-4E48-8F69-F790F420D01F@practicalillusions.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nxzPiZM0NwH6hH8+AuYE9ZA3uHx2YpDE/MMhA1/7+jtqi9ZKms6 oML5nE9/zDN43ZWbfPhyW9wQnDa/v11OEuR7QtIi6xiThGfZ4eGUbE+uaTnUE2JSZHpZjo8 f7SYBTm8y5OBpy4JQS9b28ji66vq3RKg0XY/oaLUrNWYttwg8WHbLkpSyOyfIpus3Fv5jBs FxYbIygHEFVO5d0ue0xBA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:YTqqmFOjtHk=:qg3/YQurm6fWkN3KzLKJpR 74S4pZXMG+oDG/8qsnX4jxgE+tqLRTQRXMx4ap9trjp+llYYipB5NnBVpMW59/3udA6fpQrV9 yYofL2LJ1AjLG/W5vpbyWBLvNCueShAROC6d+BgK0zHYWTuJflTU4fdQOM6ommAOHEYL1JxB5 N7EquuL4TiNNkigV478F49A2qqf7tK+YNgpax1cDLuOu1lDHOJzpJo3pdFyLMtcr/EPgC5Fzc FEMoveB6wYlZxcb/eau9UM4e5NQbToS9hVWoomIvilqFGvhd3wx1sSjtmCmFe7N2cRZVMPzf1 YJ9+syQ8Z2WZMHO/vXTcVdjcvUvoynldp0L4tbDyQLZYejfoNOojGjnTk7Twgmn6LS7FvuE+s JTu8CNJYND/NT5fOtwBPfFEV9t2/e0l2UH0SBHj3llSE7tukys3NyuYSX0OswU74e7Y53OGvx TvJJkitsG9kDL4GllS5iXW5+S3KAkf5L/TgIjcGG55fQ+l7TDh/6sD8OTyXf2MW1NLuCrm+H2 DqDJyk5pDTGBdKzcLHe3ZjLmbt2LS06C2egFUYMsh5J6CEGMzLY+76jpxBuaSWxSjqqMPbcmH L4/K6XhUTYNmwhrG+ZNRxqR7rCPurkO+msfJzOT47AQCQnX1fCNeRGJMXizUotZZwTfA0BRTH Ju4sERjPgiJcRP96yS+M2uKnJFLaCYDDMumMHTokQ1Q5/63QayspLrGoMUwRQsQqzEOqgtrwN 01coj9LmUk/yUxy0KK0i9ysP/QqlJ4WXN1M6ARnod8eliwbG0ch667aciy3Yjg3GQFhEi4jm7 YUSWqRP --Apple-Mail=_745C3271-62FD-4429-8797-AEF4C387D6F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving = a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native = display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 10bit.=20= you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or = AMD on win10 in 10bit = https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-= to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ = S > On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 > >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a = Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are = 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use = cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing = critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20= > =20 > I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s = more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot = of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much = shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in = 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time.=20 >=20 > Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and = charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same = =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D. > =20 > GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop = in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor = card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for = a 4K setup is not cheap. > =20 > Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac = is now fully supported. > =20 > Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit output but end up = delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or = displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out = there). > =20 > DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> = Hell, YouTube HDR is = 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den = > =20 > If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, = these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. >=20 > So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for = professional deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully = 10-bit or higher workflow. >=20 > Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or = less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K = display and offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility = (like Photoshop work). > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from = the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x = 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-(=20 > No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this = machine. > =20 > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage > wrote: > okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there = is a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor = these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR = workflow > =20 > The big points -=20 > =20 > - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. = They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where = you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical = infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20 > - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try = to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are = extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 = or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) = way more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of = cores means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most = tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan = on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon = anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc.=20 > - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this = is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good = but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks.=20= > - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now = is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the = "open fan" designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside = your case.=20 > =20 > I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying = I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high = megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid = cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. = And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing = shortages, supposedly.=20 > =20 > I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x = 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say = avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues > -Teddy=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_745C3271-62FD-4429-8797-AEF4C387D6F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 10bit= display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving a = 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native = display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in = 10bit. 

you can = get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or AMD on = win10 in 10bit  https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Car= d-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/


S

On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van = Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) = do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM = workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are = intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, = like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for = Redshift / Octane. 
 
I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99= s more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot = of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much = shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in = 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time. 

Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated = speakers and charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always = the same =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D.
 
GeForce = cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop in 10-bit, = period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor card going = to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K setup = is not cheap.
 
Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with = Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.
 
Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t = need 10-bit output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, = 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and = 6-bit+dithering panels out there).
 
DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is = all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den
 
If = you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, these = days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.

So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects = for professional deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully = 10-bit or higher workflow.

Quadro plus a good = affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less money than a = GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offers = better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop = work).
 
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 = 2:04 PM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on = Workstation components
 
Thanks for the input. It has confirmed = my intuition to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. = Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of = those. :-( 
No need for 10bit output here. Mostly = making HD TV promos on this machine.
 
On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at = 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
okay I'm = seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there is a major = real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor these = days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR = workflow
 
The big points - 
 
- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output = (unlikely) do not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / = CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They = are intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point = precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using = Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 
- The same goes for Xeons. = Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try to sell you on xeons because = they can make more markup on it. They are extremely expensive and offer = little to no performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to = A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM = required (not necessary). The large number of cores means each core is = slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still = single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU = rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), or high end = simulation work in houdini etc. 
- Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core = is, this is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips = are good but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded = CPU tasks. 
- Currently, for future-proofing, the = only GPU I'd look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the = "blower" models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just = push hot air around inside your case. 
 
I'm not going into a specific parts = list but from what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 = chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) = very good all in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and = one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed = there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly. 
 
I am currently rocking a machine I = built with the core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar = workflows and it does great. I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, = they can have issues
-Teddy 
 
<= /div>= --Apple-Mail=_745C3271-62FD-4429-8797-AEF4C387D6F7--