From: "Dennis Wilkins" Received: from biz127.inmotionhosting.com ([216.194.169.13] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7241219 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 08 Feb 2019 06:14:41 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=reelsolutions.com; s=default; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:To:References:Date: Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ui5Ahpx+T5w5GzRtj9fWP9LkacbRKNRXTxmL3rhxKHw=; b=Py26ay4cJzXDJIABWo0ip/TuS jJjNVDLjam8HkRR6vXCuYCyvaqdbagYtG6MnRfdQ5sebx5vW7xfCkQK8WlAfASLp9MWVcggpm/Y7U busifQjEKR3eTVRNOO4vtCqmfTGKSOLosfFB8h67v2X1/qWYGtX8jefd1thsKVJXuHB8E=; Received: from [76.126.110.20] (port=44619 helo=[192.168.1.91]) by biz127.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gryeX-0000cT-2F for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Thu, 07 Feb 2019 21:24:51 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B8AD9DB-7297-4CDA-9783-A3F54447314F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 21:24:40 -0800 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <34CADB7B-3B52-4BA2-8F72-404F7367F5CC@reelsolutions.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz127.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - media-motion.tv X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - reelsolutions.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Authenticated-Sender: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: --Apple-Mail=_4B8AD9DB-7297-4CDA-9783-A3F54447314F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren=E2=80=99= t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses = of the machine will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off buying the = fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up = being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and = Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements are to be believed. In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a = Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of = 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of = these are available for as little as $200. Dennis Wilkins > On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 > Steve, > =20 > That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X = apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro = post apps don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just because a = driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits = happening. >=20 > Better info is here: = https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support = > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is = driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the = native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in = 10bit.=20 > =20 > you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or = AMD on win10 in 10bit = https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-= to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ = > =20 > =20 > S >=20 >=20 > On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = > wrote: > =20 > >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a = Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are = 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use = cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing = critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20= > =20 > I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s = more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot = of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much = shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in = 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time.=20 >=20 > Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and = charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same = =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D. > =20 > GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop = in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor = card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for = a 4K setup is not cheap. > =20 > Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac = is now fully supported. > =20 > Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit output but end up = delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or = displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out = there). > =20 > DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> = Hell, YouTube HDR is = 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den = > =20 > If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, = these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. >=20 > So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for = professional deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully = 10-bit or higher workflow. >=20 > Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or = less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K = display and offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility = (like Photoshop work). > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from = the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x = 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-(=20 > No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this = machine. > =20 > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage > wrote: > okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there = is a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor = these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR = workflow > =20 > The big points -=20 > =20 > - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. = They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where = you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical = infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20 > - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try = to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are = extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 = or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) = way more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of = cores means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most = tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan = on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon = anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc.=20 > - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this = is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good = but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks.=20= > - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now = is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the = "open fan" designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside = your case.=20 > =20 > I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying = I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high = megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid = cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. = And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing = shortages, supposedly.=20 > =20 > I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x = 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say = avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues > -Teddy=20 --Apple-Mail=_4B8AD9DB-7297-4CDA-9783-A3F54447314F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quadro cards = aren=E2=80=99t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of = the main uses of the machine will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off = buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may = end up being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and = Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements are to be believed.

In regards to 10bit = output an option not being discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI = card or device. These will give you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB = output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of these are available = for as little as $200.

Dennis Wilkins



On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Steve,
 
That link = is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X apps =E2=80=93= not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro post apps = don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just because a driver or = monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits = happening.
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 = 11:40 PM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on = Workstation components
 
10bit display support is all over the = place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in = 10bit will driving the native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with = 5K displays running in 10bit. 
 
you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to = run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit  https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Car= d-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/
 
 
S


On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:
 
>>> Unless you = NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a Quadro. They are = intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for = rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you need = extreme floating point precision, like designing critical = infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 
 
I disagree that 10-bit is = =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s more of a ignorance of benefits = that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and post house = delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gamma = problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 = panels. See it all the time. 

Same as I see people mixing on headphones or = uncalibrated speakers and charge pro prices for the service. The defense = is always the same =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D.
 
GeForce cards cannot display video in = Premiere or images in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro = app. You have to have a monitor card going to a separate, second = monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.
 
Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS = level support with Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.
 
Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t = need 10-bit output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, = 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and = 6-bit+dithering panels out there).
 
DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon = etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den
 
If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be = rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.

So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering = final projects for professional deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t = have a fully 10-bit or higher workflow.

Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit = monitor is the same or less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output = plus dedicated 4K display and offers better drivers, more stability and = more flexibility (like Photoshop work).
 
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 = 2:04 PM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on = Workstation components
 
Thanks for the input. It has confirmed = my intuition to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. = Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of = those. :-( 
No need for 10bit output = here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this machine.
 
On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at = 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv>= wrote:
okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. = The problem here is that there is a major real-world consequence of = getting the wrong type of processor these days, and it is REALLY = important to buy the right system for YOUR workflow
 
The big points - 
 
- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output = (unlikely) do not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / = CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They = are intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point = precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using = Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 
- The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a = xeon system. Many builders try to sell you on xeons because they can = make more markup on it. They are extremely expensive and offer little to = no performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to A) lack = of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM required (not = necessary). The large number of cores means each core is slower than the = equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. = The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold = (which is going GPU soon anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini = etc. 
- Basically - the more = cores you have, the slower each core is, this is based on thermal and = manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good but the same applies - = only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks. 
- Currently, for future-proofing, the = only GPU I'd look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the = "blower" models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just = push hot air around inside your case. 
 
I'm not going into a specific parts = list but from what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 = chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) = very good all in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and = one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed = there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly. 
 
I am currently rocking a machine I = built with the core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar = workflows and it does great. I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, = they can have issues
-Teddy 

= --Apple-Mail=_4B8AD9DB-7297-4CDA-9783-A3F54447314F--