From: "Chris Zwar" Received: from mail-it1-f177.google.com ([209.85.166.177] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7242586 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 05:03:06 +0100 Received: by mail-it1-f177.google.com with SMTP id z7so23080479iti.0 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:13:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriszwar-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7JRCmAto5byXWqV+5QVQPBGK8GC9jEO8pvRvKvurEZE=; b=MJkbVL5hfAwIGPZzTk+Z8qNPsGeAIDMhXVYUU809oykn+hc5Zkq68iozXd9gKi/ws1 IRQFyFLCCVq428P4gZJ5WqvxijELTdfQMI1K74RJYp96Fg0bp6ny+PisOGjXNsZV5gSt SNl9ZrsDNOr2YeVFiRQChATO/0qwsMSXkn3zWpa0GBgkyNcK47lyt9/5ZnfTsv0Z6rjT HEGUqaBjvcDyBSluvkT+uxfULjw9bCVpd4NW8h0RP0yTO362DyUoL8+u5EZYWIAoikZC AqIb+CvPqMqYIDPrZa56UfsQbqIc6ANv028doNsa0sLxClwS9BGHlJVho0UuwrljNhkJ mt1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=7JRCmAto5byXWqV+5QVQPBGK8GC9jEO8pvRvKvurEZE=; b=Z7V8MNvWZK8Z20LY5ixYoWqnIAuzAuabc2YcqobDU6Su/GZ4PdBzrEcS8DVinoeQyw Tp1+Ql0kfTKHA4b8iGcZyzRzW2dUJrCr9l6zRdQ8CD5OQ2A5IgGaOEEYfQemDatMEpO/ bb1nJoHe1enlahqzxl1JkDt9ihmegI5fX8obhCeZ17cXbg7QDPBkTFGsn7dzO73DmYAN 0eQiIhCdINJAByn20ksWG9EndY7uBCJyhSktkXM4DOUeu0oo48dWEmQmxfY7B12RnDHn /qzCfphFDqm9WgM64QFgJmt6v3KMl5OVNrbi/881BvLl4VV2TcVy8MIzH6cPwgsD1uVl j5Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZ2zjYwuCYVqm0lCujAsjVUgmcNszESe/5n85piq2WJv/MS6qV/ 0OK5Iwa+MCiG9nLYlG8WdkQMH/TCYRzwKpYh53x+EZbA X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY5QzIKdJDaU/k6kFqSWQH/GhPwo13EVXXpCYCWZwcwSys3PrWCD2WmGkgSwdyykC1/b+m17UgRiHXeyaYfvyo= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5015:: with SMTP id m21mr4160318itb.2.1549858402811; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:13:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:13:11 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008d585e058196877f" --0000000000008d585e058196877f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition. Currently I'm about 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit slow going. Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are especially interested and knowledgable on performance related matters. Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the best way to contact you off-list please? And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions on performance/ components then let me know too. Cheers, -Chris On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash wrote: > Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going forward. > I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors = I > have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for > films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD > promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you > have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and just goes black. > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren < > AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote: > >> > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a >> Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of >> 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of thes= e >> are available for as little as $200. >> >> >> >> I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit >> display that you will need to see the output. >> >> >> >> I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s great going out to a 50= =E2=80=9D HDR >> TV). *But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or >> apps that don=E2=80=99t support that card*. You have to have a second mo= nitor >> where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monito= r. >> >> >> >> If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional monitor i= s >> not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would rather always see >> 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues. >> >> >> >> As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, 10-bit is goin= g >> to be a bigger deal. >> >> >> >> *From:* After Effects Mail List >> *Sent:* Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM >> *To:* After Effects Mail List >> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >> >> >> >> If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren=E2=80= =99t even in the >> conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses of the machine >> will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off buying the fastest GTX or RTX= card(s) >> you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the ne= ar >> future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements = are to be believed. >> >> >> >> In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a >> Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of >> 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of thes= e >> are available for as little as $200. >> >> >> Dennis Wilkins >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Steve, >> >> >> >> That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X >> apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro= post apps >> don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just because a driver or monit= or flags >> 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening. >> >> >> Better info is here: >> https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support >> >> >> >> *From:* After Effects Mail List >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM >> *To:* After Effects Mail List >> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >> >> >> >> 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving = a >> 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native displ= ay in 8bit. >> recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 10bit. >> >> >> >> you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or AM= D >> on win10 in 10bit >> https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Softwar= e-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ >> >> >> >> >> >> S >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a Quadro. >> They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as f= ast >> for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you n= eed >> extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure= . >> Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. >> >> >> >> I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s more = of a ignorance of >> benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and post >> house delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gam= ma >> problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 pane= ls. >> See it all the time. >> >> >> Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and >> charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same >> =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> >> GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop in >> 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor car= d >> going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K >> setup is not cheap. >> >> >> >> Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac i= s >> now fully supported. >> >> >> >> Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit output but end up de= livering >> work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or displays w= ith >> wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out there). >> >> >> >> DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> >> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit. >> https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den >> >> >> >> If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, these = days >> almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. >> >> >> So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for profess= ional >> deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully 10-bit or higher = workflow. >> >> >> Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less >> money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and >> offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photosh= op >> work). >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* After Effects Mail List >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM >> *To:* After Effects Mail List >> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >> >> >> >> Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from th= e >> Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti >> now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-( >> >> No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this machin= e. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage >> wrote: >> >> okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there is >> a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor th= ese >> days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR workfl= ow >> >> >> >> The big points - >> >> >> >> - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. >> They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as f= ast >> for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you n= eed >> extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure= . >> Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. >> >> - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try t= o >> sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are >> extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 o= r >> i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way >> more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of cor= es >> means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks i= n >> Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on doing = a >> lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), or high >> end simulation work in houdini etc. >> >> - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this is >> based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good bu= t >> the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks. >> >> - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now is >> the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the "open f= an" >> designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside your case. >> >> >> >> I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying I'd >> be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz >> boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid cooling (a >> 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM >> prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing shortages, >> supposedly. >> >> >> >> I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x >> 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say >> avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues >> >> -Teddy >> >> >> > --0000000000008d585e058196877f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

I started researching performan= ce last year, with a view to writing up an article and some thoughts for th= e ProVideo Coalition.=C2=A0 Currently I'm about 50% of the way through = my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit slow going.=C2=A0 E= ven so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are especially inter= ested and knowledgable on performance related matters.

=
Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for inp= ut and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the b= est way to contact you off-list please?
And if there's anyone= else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions on performance/ component= s then let me know too.

Cheers,

-Chris


On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash &= lt;AE-List@media-motion.tv&g= t; wrote:
Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that=C2=A0in m= ind going forward. I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output = but the monitors I have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to g= et into 4K VFX for films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is = building HD promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is = when you have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and just = goes black.=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-mot= ion.tv> wrote:

> In regards to 10bit output an option not being = discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give = you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable v= ersions of these are available for as little as $200.

=C2=A0

I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting = for the 4K 10-bit display that you will need to see the output.

=C2=A0

I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s gre= at going out to a 50=E2=80=9D HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or apps that= don=E2=80=99t support that card. You have to have a second monitor whe= re as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor.<= /u>

=C2=A0

If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus = additional monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would r= ather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues= .

=C2=A0

As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low= -end, 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal.

=C2=A0

From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

=C2=A0

If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quad= ro cards aren=E2=80=99t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one= of the main uses of the machine will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off= buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia= =E2=80=99s and Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements are to be believed.<= u>

=C2=A0

In regards to 10bit output an option not being discu= ssed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you t= he option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versio= ns of these are available for as little as $200.


Dennis Wilkins

=C2=A0



On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <<= a href=3D"mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv" target=3D"_blank">AE-List@media-m= otion.tv> wrote:

=C2=A0

Steve,

=C2=A0

That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for = games and Direct X apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe an= d most other pro post apps don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just b= ecause a driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening.

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0After Ef= fects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:4= 0 PM
To:=C2=A0After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [AE] Feedback on Worksta= tion components

=C2=A0

10bit display support is all over the place on mac. = MBP 2016 is driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will drivi= ng the native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running = in 10bit.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is= how to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit =C2=A0https://www.pug= etsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-to-Display-10-bi= t-Output-1221/

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

S




On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <= AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:<= /p>

=C2=A0

>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (un= likely) do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM wor= kflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intende= d for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D= . It=E2=80=99s more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I= get a lot of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, to= o much shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time.=C2=A0


Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and char= ge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same =E2=80=9Clook= s/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or im= ages in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to = have a monitor card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box += monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.

=C2=A0

Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support wi= th Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.

=C2=A0

Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit = output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR = environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering pan= els out there).

=C2=A0

DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, = Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den

=C2=A0

If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it use= d to be rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.


So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for profession= al deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully 10-bit or higher = workflow.


Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less mon= ey than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offer= s better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop work)= .

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0After Ef= fects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04= PM
To:=C2=A0After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [AE] Feedback on Worksta= tion components

=C2=A0

Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition = to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x = 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-(=C2=A0=

No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV p= romos on this machine.

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The probl= em here is that there is a major real-world consequence of getting the wron= g type of processor these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right= system for YOUR workflow

=C2=A0

The big points -=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do = not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and = are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use c= ases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane.=C2=A0

- The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system.= Many builders try to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup o= n it. They are extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benef= its vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM r= equired (not necessary). The large number of cores means each core is slowe= r than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still single-t= hreaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon an= yway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc.=C2=A0

- Basically - the more cores you have, the slower ea= ch core is, this is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR = chips are good but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded= CPU tasks.=C2=A0

- Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'= ;d look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower&q= uot; models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just= push hot air around inside your case.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I'm not going into a specific parts list but fro= m what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip wit= h 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all = in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and sta= yed there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am currently rocking a machine I built with the co= re i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great.= I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues=

-Teddy=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--0000000000008d585e058196877f--