From: "Robert & Jenny" Received: from mail-pf1-f170.google.com ([209.85.210.170] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7242597 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 05:10:55 +0100 Received: by mail-pf1-f170.google.com with SMTP id j3so4644443pfi.12 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:21:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=qVN9jn8XAQ+zVk9MUMFYaTjOSj+wE0SGhQoHcCtxFBk=; b=ZT1rIxJcdkKDNpocT6XfdjKEYQsClsfzx5kbGck6umRbJtyBvv93APtVR/hv4qorut v/rxpud1GVzDBm/Ni5sab6oX0CMgIUW/bIE5AbWrqOIpRbDWPcGn18419OE3H60uUIxC MZnIkIg/xQFaAV/ZCmZmpGrq9pftfzCAqJ6sP7Nz1F2iIsDUL8/MjgzPAoF0VLIu0QZe vos69+QtWn+Xdp/fVI/6B28RG8Qz8FTwIt9SX+W6mrGF7F72v+169xEGBPH1cnAOwxW2 6MUFqpHqgCkF3IapzmRTEDvYu8LE+oOT93e1WoKnr/hZDnwlPcNzplBeJVuxCNhuo4u1 8Fnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=qVN9jn8XAQ+zVk9MUMFYaTjOSj+wE0SGhQoHcCtxFBk=; b=KQXkSWK2tcaTCD8J0D+2XfsQy+36zoUBgPSrcuMAB6oJaQhJvqqT4JTTPOiX8ptZL0 olwblEYtaEb242/BXIuMP+YGkVlkFkSwkWx0DMM/d2bdlDvJ4ZbFEldqziWl3Fa7r6Zp 7J9OO3fA3oTuhyWgKKNuXljxOdBdENP8UJVDik2Az7jjk9SAr6wj/yKv1WMDcCFMjHLM ZhUxaafIJBI9RzHW/vI3Vtfp14r8WQewMDVSn7BVQbRM3DY0V/bXNPAtnjf/S5PpzcmQ 2t8aeKedHRr2u/mguAaQY+iT+Qs6x45c5tdV6uoS9lzgHvVVGABJqdYU1rUG18K+U/rl D/3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYD6+E7K8b+0T1qH4efKjqtCztAv3UuD4nQR0COmXTIMex+g/EL Io3K16SAANC0eAONlresLVLO9y8N X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYJ04G0nS6I8BPk63Xk9PJJmMrc9ZttDtDj7N54lB1Zug0U6yxuGvJtpN7KDHDdQuiXr9WTcQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:235c:: with SMTP id u28mr16810173pgm.400.1549858872022; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:21:12 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.218] (50-39-113-28.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net. [50.39.113.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14sm13058666pgc.17.2019.02.10.20.21.11 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:21:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components To: After Effects Mail List References: Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:21:11 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D6394BB5371DE65578984B14" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D6394BB5371DE65578984B14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One thing I remembered is that Puget Systems often does a really good write up and test featuring the latest Intel processors (and AMD) on occasion. They often have good insights on systems for mograph. https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/After-Effects-CC-2019-Intel-Core-i9-9990XE-Performance-1348/    - Rob On 2/10/2019 8:13 PM, Chris Zwar wrote: > Hi all, > > I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up > an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition.  Currently > I'm about 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so > it's a bit slow going.  Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list > members who are especially interested and knowledgable on performance > related matters. > > Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input > and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the > best way to contact you off-list please? > And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions > on performance/ components then let me know too. > > Cheers, > > -Chris > > > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash > wrote: > > Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going > forward. I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output > but the monitors I have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting > to get into 4K VFX for films on my machine but most of the rest of > the team is building HD promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve > with the BM cards is when you have a 4K screen it won't downscale > through the card and just goes black. > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren > > wrote: > > > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is > using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give > you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). > 4K capable versions of these are available for as little as $200. > > I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K > 10-bit display that you will need to see the output. > > I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it’s great going out to a > 50” HDR TV). *But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your > desktop display or apps that don’t support that card*. You > have to have a second monitor where as Quadro allows you to > have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor. > > If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional > monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would > rather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work > and catch issues. > > As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, > 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal. > > *From:* After Effects Mail List > > *Sent:* Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM > *To:* After Effects Mail List > > *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > > If you’re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren’t > even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the > main uses of the machine will be Redshift you’re better off > buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX > cards may end up being a better choice in the near future, if > Nvidia’s and Redshift’s recent announcements are to be believed. > > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is > using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give > you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). > 4K capable versions of these are available for as little as $200. > > > Dennis Wilkins > > > > On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren > > > wrote: > > Steve, > > That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games > and Direct X apps – not relevant to this discussion. Adobe > and most other pro post apps don’t use or support DirectX. > And just because a driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not > mean there is actually 10-bits happening. > > > Better info is > here:https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support > > *From:*After Effects Mail List > > *Sent:*Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM > *To:*After Effects Mail List > > *Subject:*Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > > 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP > 2016 is driving a 24” external HDMI monitor in 10bit will > driving the native display in 8bit. recent model imacs > with 5K displays running in 10bit. > > you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how > to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit > https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ > > S > > > > > On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren > > wrote: > > >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do > not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD > / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering > CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where > you need extreme floating point precision, like > designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using > Quadros for Redshift / Octane. > > I disagree that 10-bit is “unlikely”. It’s more of a > ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get > a lot of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff > with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gamma > problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on > typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time. > > > Same as I see people mixing on headphones or > uncalibrated speakers and charge pro prices for the > service. The defense is always the same “looks/sounds > great here!”. > > GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or > images in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any > other pro app. You have to have a monitor card going > to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + > monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap. > > Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with > Quadros and Mac is now fully supported. > > Most people think they do don’t need 10-bit output but > end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, > 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with wider > than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out there). > > DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, > Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is > 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en > > If you’re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be > rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit > or higher. > > > So I just don’t take people mastering final projects > for professional deliver very seriously that don’t > have a fully 10-bit or higher workflow. > > > Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is > the same or less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video > output plus dedicated 4K display and offers better > drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like > Photoshop work). > > *From:*After Effects Mail List > > > *Sent:*Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM > *To:*After Effects Mail List > > *Subject:*Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > > Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to > stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. > Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't > have funds for 2 of those. :-( > > No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV > promos on this machine. > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage > > wrote: > > okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem > here is that there is a major real-world > consequence of getting the wrong type of processor > these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the > right system for YOUR workflow > > The big points - > > - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) > do not get a quadro. They are intended for > industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as > fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are > intended for use cases where you need extreme > floating point precision, like designing critical > infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for > Redshift / Octane. > > - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon > system. Many builders try to sell you on xeons > because they can make more markup on it. They are > extremely expensive and offer little to no > performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This is > basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability > and B) way more expensive ECC RAM required (not > necessary). The large number of cores means each > core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and > most tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. > The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU > rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon > anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc. > > - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower > each core is, this is based on thermal and > manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good > but the same applies - only necessary for pure > multithreaded CPU tasks. > > - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd > look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to > find the "blower" models and not the "open fan" > designs, as those tend to just push hot air around > inside your case. > > I'm not going into a specific parts list but from > what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with > an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / > OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one > liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), > and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices > have blown up and stayed there due to > manufacturing shortages, supposedly. > > I am currently rocking a machine I built with the > core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar > workflows and it does great. I will say avoid Asus > motherboards for now, they can have issues > > -Teddy > --------------D6394BB5371DE65578984B14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

One thing I remembered is that Puget Systems often does a really good write up and test featuring the latest Intel processors (and AMD) on occasion. They often have good insights on systems for mograph.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/After-Effects-CC-2019-Intel-Core-i9-9990XE-Performance-1348/

   - Rob

On 2/10/2019 8:13 PM, Chris Zwar wrote:
Hi all,

I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition.  Currently I'm about 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit slow going.  Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are especially interested and knowledgable on performance related matters.

Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the best way to contact you off-list please?
And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions on performance/ components then let me know too.

Cheers,

-Chris


On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going forward. I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors I have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and just goes black. 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

> In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of these are available for as little as $200.

 

I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit display that you will need to see the output.

 

I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it’s great going out to a 50” HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or apps that don’t support that card. You have to have a second monitor where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor.

 

If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would rather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues.

 

As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal.

 

From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

 

If you’re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren’t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses of the machine will be Redshift you’re better off buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia’s and Redshift’s recent announcements are to be believed.

 

In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of these are available for as little as $200.


Dennis Wilkins

 



On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

 

Steve,

 

That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X apps – not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro post apps don’t use or support DirectX. And just because a driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening.

 

From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

 

10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving a 24” external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 10bit. 

 

you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit  https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/

 

 

S




On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

 

>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 

 

I disagree that 10-bit is “unlikely”. It’s more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time. 


Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same “looks/sounds great here!”.

 

GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.

 

Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.

 

Most people think they do don’t need 10-bit output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out there).

 

DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

 

If you’re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.


So I just don’t take people mastering final projects for professional deliver very seriously that don’t have a fully 10-bit or higher workflow.


Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop work).

 

 

From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

 

Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-( 

No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this machine.

 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there is a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR workflow

 

The big points - 

 

- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 

- The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of cores means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc. 

- Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks. 

- Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside your case. 

 

I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly. 

 

I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues

-Teddy 

 

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