From: "Teddy Gage" Received: from mail-ot1-f52.google.com ([209.85.210.52] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7242630 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 05:41:28 +0100 Received: by mail-ot1-f52.google.com with SMTP id g1so1444011otj.11 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:51:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fI4+AzeFOTn1xZire0lksntD0W66tL136jq9z6cf/2o=; b=J7yPCaBh8+PeW2s6KANl88de1ko24CI4touJcE/ydHqtb+wURkcZJyFUQ3mktlrBIf E/98lsFKep22Yg59Cz3TWgx7KOU2x9i+sFLwuFESGn5wKatf7uVq1Y6LCMP7gOGSBG5o A2Wim3he9vBhX8pbxqvylewJRHdviI/Y3YSc+N5n5ttyUqU1RKLLV+xWusODeoxJLH4Q X6BtwH5qFOCZfuhCNCvZYjCf0fUUYG/u+a0XaMrYKqAt2X5uq+9j1FdbSjTrwgi9LKtF RHk0S1BKJ9Zimg0um7BQdetNcYE9mJYpjTVbxByhQ/jM1XgKU0fKmqtGxoXev00eD4vK 0qnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fI4+AzeFOTn1xZire0lksntD0W66tL136jq9z6cf/2o=; b=HJSq30Ac6vdPxMzEBxYjqF4F/fr/x88cUW+rBBSEgw9UJGybxUcFSxbWRwPGN2kdPD x6pHKNXSySKLn4QL7NpAEmiURzk5J7JWhCn7/uuLi+l/BUrOcNeWbTLhrBcDyE2+rCHg UqVyxYXIoizdZCUsaKwr0rqefpsN1A+zOdBKLZYvToWTBzaXl2QiGKfsLbkI/u+cnED6 4ESazkXlm3GXmDVGsPElsIwrXIfZqBs3h3OVTHEU5aOzv88PRoY0IDDlmBTDRM37fYpf KMmj7qmYQrrpXEELvY0HB+bPBF6M2pzqTMvhiCsZA7gD6yIXt3L0+4+ISq3SpfI5c8/C QYAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZc6NhJ75bhbcg2Ux/Yw8EAD5KmKSdARnfqDAdST8WCR7aJiA2M kN1IGqvTWgdLCXCvPimQ8K0KFYGrZkNm3cNJ1rxTVQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYj7XOVs0HEr3+Xg4q+XZgW88tCkXhD7i1kCnQi7ERcnYrzsrOixtmQC4jUaZNRPjj+7hfwzsq6M40KQ1Rfvw8= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:644b:: with SMTP id m11mr14393776otl.90.1549860705314; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:51:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 23:51:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cab05305819710d2" --000000000000cab05305819710d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure thing Chris, feel free to reach me at teddygage@gmail.com. Goes for anyone- always happy to consult or chat hardware or software. Have also been doing a fair amount of VFX supervising recently for a couple TV shows. On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:14 PM Chris Zwar wrote= : > Hi all, > > I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up an > article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition. Currently I'm abou= t > 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit sl= ow > going. Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are > especially interested and knowledgable on performance related matters. > > Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input and > this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the best w= ay > to contact you off-list please? > And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions on > performance/ components then let me know too. > > Cheers, > > -Chris > > > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash wrote: > >> Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going forward= . >> I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors= I >> have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for >> films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD >> promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you >> have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and just goes black= . >> >> On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren < >> AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote: >> >>> > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a >>> Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of >>> 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of the= se >>> are available for as little as $200. >>> >>> >>> >>> I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit >>> display that you will need to see the output. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s great going out to a 5= 0=E2=80=9D HDR >>> TV). *But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or >>> apps that don=E2=80=99t support that card*. You have to have a second m= onitor >>> where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monit= or. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional monitor >>> is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would rather always se= e >>> 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues. >>> >>> >>> >>> As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, 10-bit is >>> going to be a bigger deal. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Sent:* Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM >>> *To:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >>> >>> >>> >>> If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren=E2=80= =99t even in the >>> conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses of the machine >>> will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off buying the fastest GTX or RT= X card(s) >>> you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the n= ear >>> future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements= are to be believed. >>> >>> >>> >>> In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a >>> Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of >>> 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of the= se >>> are available for as little as $200. >>> >>> >>> Dennis Wilkins >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> >>> >>> That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X >>> apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pr= o post apps >>> don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just because a driver or moni= tor flags >>> 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening. >>> >>> >>> Better info is here: >>> https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM >>> *To:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >>> >>> >>> >>> 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving >>> a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native di= splay in >>> 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 10bit. >>> >>> >>> >>> you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or >>> AMD on win10 in 10bit >>> https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Softwa= re-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> S >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a Quadro. >>> They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast >>> for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you = need >>> extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructur= e. >>> Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. >>> >>> >>> >>> I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s more= of a ignorance of >>> benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and pos= t >>> house delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/ga= mma >>> problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 pan= els. >>> See it all the time. >>> >>> >>> Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and >>> charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same >>> =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D. >>> >>> >>> >>> GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop i= n >>> 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor ca= rd >>> going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4= K >>> setup is not cheap. >>> >>> >>> >>> Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac >>> is now fully supported. >>> >>> >>> >>> Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit output but end up d= elivering >>> work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or displays = with >>> wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out there). >>> >>> >>> >>> DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> >>> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit. >>> https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den >>> >>> >>> >>> If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, these= days >>> almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. >>> >>> >>> So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for profes= sional >>> deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully 10-bit or higher= workflow. >>> >>> >>> Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less >>> money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display an= d >>> offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photos= hop >>> work). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM >>> *To:* After Effects Mail List >>> *Subject:* Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from >>> the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x >>> 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-( >>> >>> No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this >>> machine. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage >>> wrote: >>> >>> okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there i= s >>> a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor t= hese >>> days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR workf= low >>> >>> >>> >>> The big points - >>> >>> >>> >>> - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. >>> They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast >>> for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you = need >>> extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructur= e. >>> Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. >>> >>> - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try >>> to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are >>> extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 = or >>> i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way >>> more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of co= res >>> means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks = in >>> Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on doing= a >>> lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), or hig= h >>> end simulation work in houdini etc. >>> >>> - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this is >>> based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good b= ut >>> the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks. >>> >>> - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now is >>> the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the "open = fan" >>> designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside your case. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying I'= d >>> be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz >>> boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid cooling (a >>> 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM >>> prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing shortages, >>> supposedly. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x >>> 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say >>> avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues >>> >>> -Teddy >>> >>> >>> >> -- _____________________________ Teddy Gage President Shotgun Inc. 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX SHOTGUNPOST.COM BKLYN NY 11215 --000000000000cab05305819710d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure thing Chris, feel free to reach me at teddygage@gmail.com. Goes for anyone- a= lways happy to consult or chat hardware or software. Have also been doing a= fair amount of VFX supervising recently for a couple TV shows.=C2=A0
=

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:14 PM Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Hi all,

I star= ted researching performance last year, with a view to writing up an article= and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition.=C2=A0 Currently I'm abou= t 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's = a bit slow going.=C2=A0 Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members= who are especially interested and knowledgable on performance related matt= ers.

Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of p= eople to approach for input and this thread just reinforces that! Are you t= wo able let me know the best way to contact you off-list please?
= And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions = on performance/ components then let me know too.

C= heers,

-Chris


On Sat, 9 Feb 20= 19 at 07:18, Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Those are good though= ts Stephen and I'll keep that=C2=A0in mind going forward. I am planning= to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors I have to use r= ight now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for films on my m= achine but most of the rest of the team is building HD promos/mograph conte= nt. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you have a 4K screen it won= 't downscale through the card and just goes black.=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 8, = 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

> In regards to 10bit output an option not being = discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give = you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable v= ersions of these are available for as little as $200.

=C2=A0

I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting = for the 4K 10-bit display that you will need to see the output.

=C2=A0

I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s gre= at going out to a 50=E2=80=9D HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or apps that= don=E2=80=99t support that card. You have to have a second monitor whe= re as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor.<= /u>

=C2=A0

If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus = additional monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would r= ather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues= .

=C2=A0

As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low= -end, 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal.

=C2=A0

From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

=C2=A0

If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quad= ro cards aren=E2=80=99t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one= of the main uses of the machine will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off= buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia= =E2=80=99s and Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements are to be believed.<= u>

=C2=A0

In regards to 10bit output an option not being discu= ssed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you t= he option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versio= ns of these are available for as little as $200.


Dennis Wilkins

=C2=A0



On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <<= a href=3D"mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv" target=3D"_blank">AE-List@media-m= otion.tv> wrote:

=C2=A0

Steve,

=C2=A0

That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for = games and Direct X apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe an= d most other pro post apps don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just b= ecause a driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening.


Better info is here:=C2=A0https://imagescience.com.au/knowl= edge/10-bit-output-support

=C2=A0

From:= =C2=A0After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motio= n.tv>=C2=A0 Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, = February 7, 2019 11:40 PM
To:=C2=A0After Effect= s Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [AE= ] Feedback on Workstation components

=C2=A0

10bit display support is all over the place on mac. = MBP 2016 is driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will drivi= ng the native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running = in 10bit.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is= how to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit =C2=A0https://www.pug= etsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-to-Display-10-bi= t-Output-1221/

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

S




On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <= AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:<= /p>

=C2=A0

>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (un= likely) do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM wor= kflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intende= d for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D= . It=E2=80=99s more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I= get a lot of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, to= o much shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time.=C2=A0


Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and char= ge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same =E2=80=9Clook= s/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or im= ages in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to = have a monitor card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box += monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.

=C2=A0

Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support wi= th Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.

=C2=A0

Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit = output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR = environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering pan= els out there).

=C2=A0

DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, = Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den

=C2=A0

If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it use= d to be rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.


So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for profession= al deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully 10-bit or higher = workflow.


Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less mon= ey than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offer= s better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop work)= .

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:= =C2=A0After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motio= n.tv>=C2=A0 Sent:=C2=A0Thursday, = February 7, 2019 2:04 PM
To:=C2=A0After Effect= s Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [AE= ] Feedback on Workstation components

=C2=A0

Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition = to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x = 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-(=C2=A0=

No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV p= romos on this machine.

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The probl= em here is that there is a major real-world consequence of getting the wron= g type of processor these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right= system for YOUR workflow

=C2=A0

The big points -=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do = not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and = are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use c= ases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane.=C2=A0

- The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system.= Many builders try to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup o= n it. They are extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benef= its vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM r= equired (not necessary). The large number of cores means each core is slowe= r than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still single-t= hreaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon an= yway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc.=C2=A0

- Basically - the more cores you have, the slower ea= ch core is, this is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR = chips are good but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded= CPU tasks.=C2=A0

- Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'= ;d look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower&q= uot; models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just= push hot air around inside your case.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I'm not going into a specific parts list but fro= m what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip wit= h 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all = in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and sta= yed there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I am currently rocking a machine I built with the co= re i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great.= I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues=

-Teddy=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
____________________= _________
Teddy Gage
President
Shotgun Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX
BKLYN NY 11215

--000000000000cab05305819710d2--