From: "Carey Dissmore" Received: from mail-it1-f175.google.com ([209.85.166.175] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7242711 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 17:36:39 +0100 Received: by mail-it1-f175.google.com with SMTP id x124so374842itd.1 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 08:46:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=imugonline-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=0ZCRNBtHba6AIJpqgEO4Mnawt8fs7PsVb8BMN51ekqQ=; b=lFAl7rUb1ELBiIIx2R7goi6Jdp25pSpcrkL38FU0fj5zcr2EomDnMqsQCbnoRm7CP5 TDJz97DNbAObCUyywWCGI+q4ZTowNekghVRfGAhsB+uIYtLBvrKh0gDRsVLxbBMK7y/v kdnfJSDCcBzMfoFEUdFgvA7Y7+9xH/hj4TCJ5dP3LJ7Ocim+t/yV/GZPt+/d3Tp7CPE1 sTCjKQBy825qJoeKPyqCdfAExQ7Ams8ZBoT6NDs+wydliEnvawpKLsC11YrFzwVoFqqU bShVJ56f7ThS56DIRYowUGLeGEnF/UVQ9BTeCHaSBbbl5jHLbfYYDY4H4Hl68Ff2iLnt asFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=0ZCRNBtHba6AIJpqgEO4Mnawt8fs7PsVb8BMN51ekqQ=; b=U1b7WbFZvETSAXUwMM91BkcaTovc8G7UFJzySuE/DxChU4wr+zbYt8xBdj7vr27DUD P6yej66h19SsFrkrf7zzSAfmMzlm9I4DQmxN9EmAXv8btKNPJ95BjH3Pz34DKVOX71xv LvSsucHoHBBzm9b1hu2fcOoZPdYd1LCtfxyaypXfEol0PHMCfOr3XLpBdmyIKWWjJ47F TWqMQ8E9g7qeyN120+YoLokQJcBU2I2x/gXSBJl1DWR+p9WouckVIlSkUDGsw7BAQFTR h1VtzYGoeqdtURf/T2xFV1WtOgy7Pyvsit0XWPMqgJRXtnd7YuvJ/HG8dM1u2SEJSAzX Jjqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZe1gArlZAbASrfDE3QejxVTxPEIAWStUkWDBS3zVSluLlz1FvO MVgcEsMSOj/Pdel5Pxfhp/X/zYwGzrs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZpKFi0P7SjfaUlkhBfJ00kEzsI2t+ewv1KqN/4gfa7vm84gGj9J1CPRIY61IGXzwPW2OIrmg== X-Received: by 2002:a24:7906:: with SMTP id z6mr251902itc.124.1549903617280; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 08:46:57 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.84] (c-24-118-189-141.hsd1.mn.comcast.net. [24.118.189.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b25sm4760826iot.10.2019.02.11.08.46.56 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Feb 2019 08:46:56 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F1C173B7-2657-462D-AE36-1363774AD3E6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 10:46:55 -0600 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) --Apple-Mail=_F1C173B7-2657-462D-AE36-1363774AD3E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Oh hey sorry Chris if you want to ping me carey@imugonline.com > On Feb 11, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m here: stephen@sv2studios.com = > =20 > =20 > Best, > =20 > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > =20 > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > =20 > A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like = fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, = what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. > =E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick > =20 > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 11:13 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > Hi all, > =20 > I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up = an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition. Currently I'm = about 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a = bit slow going. Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who = are especially interested and knowledgable on performance related = matters. > =20 > Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input = and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the = best way to contact you off-list please? > And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions = on performance/ components then let me know too. > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > -Chris > =20 > =20 > On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash > wrote: > Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going = forward. I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the = monitors I have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into = 4K VFX for films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is = building HD promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards = is when you have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and = just goes black.=20 > =20 > On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren = > wrote: > > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a = Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of = 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of = these are available for as little as $200. > =20 > I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit = display that you will need to see the output. > =20 > I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s great going out to a = 50=E2=80=9D HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop = display or apps that don=E2=80=99t support that card. You have to have a = second monitor where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main = desktop monitor. > =20 > If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional monitor = is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would rather always see = 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issues. > =20 > As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, 10-bit is = going to be a bigger deal. > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > If you=E2=80=99re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren=E2=80=99= t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses = of the machine will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off buying the = fastest GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up = being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and = Redshift=E2=80=99s recent announcements are to be believed. > =20 > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a = Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of = 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of = these are available for as little as $200. >=20 > Dennis Wilkins >=20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = > wrote: > =20 > Steve, > =20 > That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X = apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro = post apps don=E2=80=99t use or support DirectX. And just because a = driver or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits = happening. >=20 > Better info is here: = https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-support = > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is = driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the = native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in = 10bit.=20 > =20 > you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or = AMD on win10 in 10bit = https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-Software-= to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ = > =20 > =20 > S >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = > wrote: > =20 > >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a = Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are = 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use = cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing = critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20= > =20 > I disagree that 10-bit is =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s = more of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot = of pro colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much = shadow noise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in = 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time.=20 >=20 > Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and = charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same = =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D. > =20 > GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop = in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor = card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for = a 4K setup is not cheap. > =20 > Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac = is now fully supported. > =20 > Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t need 10-bit output but end up = delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or = displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out = there). > =20 > DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> = Hell, YouTube HDR is = 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den = > =20 > If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, = these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. >=20 > So I just don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for = professional deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully = 10-bit or higher workflow. >=20 > Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or = less money than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K = display and offers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility = (like Photoshop work). > =20 > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components > =20 > Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from = the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x = 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-(=20 > No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this = machine. > =20 > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage > wrote: > okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there = is a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor = these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR = workflow > =20 > The big points -=20 > =20 > - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. = They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where = you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical = infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane.=20 > - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try = to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are = extremely expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 = or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) = way more expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of = cores means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most = tasks in Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan = on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon = anyway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc.=20 > - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this = is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good = but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks.=20= > - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now = is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the = "open fan" designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside = your case.=20 > =20 > I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying = I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high = megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid = cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. = And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing = shortages, supposedly.=20 > =20 > I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x = 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say = avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues > -Teddy=20 --Apple-Mail=_F1C173B7-2657-462D-AE36-1363774AD3E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Oh = hey sorry Chris if you want to ping me carey@imugonline.com

On Feb = 11, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m= here: stephen@sv2studios.com
 
 
Best,
 
stephen van vuuren
336.202.4777
 
http://www.sv2studios.com/
http://www.sv2dcp.com/
 
A film is =E2=80=93 or should be = =E2=80=93 more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression = of moods and feelings. The theme, what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the = meaning, all that comes later.
=E2=80=93Stanley = Kubrick
 
 
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 = 11:13 PM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on = Workstation components
 
Hi all,
 
I started researching performance last year, with a view to = writing up an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo = Coalition.  Currently I'm about 50% of the way through my plan and = I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit slow going.  Even so, I was = wanting to reach out to list members who are especially interested and = knowledgable on performance related matters.
 
Teddy & Stephen were both on my = list of people to approach for input and this thread just reinforces = that! Are you two able let me know the best way to contact you off-list = please?
And if there's anyone else who has = strong knowledge or strong opinions on performance/ components then let = me know too.
 
Cheers,
 
-Chris
 
 
On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at = 07:18, Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Those are = good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going forward. I = am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors I = have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for = films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD = promos/mograph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you = have a 4K screen it won't downscale through the card and just goes = black. 
 
On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at = 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
> In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed = is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the = option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable = versions of these are available for as little as $200.
 
I = mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit = display that you will need to see the output.
 
I have a = $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=E2=80=99s great going out to a 50=E2=80=9D = HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display = or apps that don=E2=80=99t support that card. You have to have a = second monitor where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main = desktop monitor.
 
If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus = additional monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I = would rather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and = catch issues.
 
As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, = 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal.
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 = 12:25 AM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on = Workstation components
 
If you=E2=80=99re talking = about a budget system Quadro cards aren=E2=80=99t even in the = conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses of the machine = will be Redshift you=E2=80=99re better off buying the fastest GTX or RTX = card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice = in the near future, if Nvidia=E2=80=99s and Redshift=E2=80=99s recent = announcements are to be believed.
 
In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is = using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the = option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable = versions of these are available for as little as $200.


Dennis Wilkins

 

 

On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 = PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
 
Steve,
 
That link is for 10-bit DirectX output = which is for games and Direct X apps =E2=80=93 not relevant to this = discussion. Adobe and most other pro post apps don=E2=80=99t use or = support DirectX. And just because a driver or monitor flags 10-bit does = not mean there is actually 10-bits happening.
 
From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components
 
10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 = is driving a 24=E2=80=9D external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the = native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in = 10bit. 
 
you can get nV cards on win to run in = 10bit. here is how to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit  https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Car= d-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/
 
 
S



On Feb 7, = 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
 
>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) = do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM = workflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are = intended for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, = like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for = Redshift / Octane. 
 
I disagree that 10-bit is = =E2=80=9Cunlikely=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s more of a ignorance of benefits = that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and post house = delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gamma = problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 = panels. See it all the time. 

Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated = speakers and charge pro prices for the service. The defense is always = the same =E2=80=9Clooks/sounds great here!=E2=80=9D.
 
GeForce cards cannot display video in = Premiere or images in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro = app. You have to have a monitor card going to a separate, second = monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.
 
Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS = level support with Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.
 
Most people think they do don=E2=80=99t = need 10-bit output but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, = 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and = 6-bit+dithering panels out there).
 
DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is = all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=3Den
 
If you=E2=80=99re delivering 10-bit and = while it used to be rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 = bit or higher.

So I just = don=E2=80=99t take people mastering final projects for professional = deliver very seriously that don=E2=80=99t have a fully 10-bit or higher = workflow.

Quadro plus = a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less money than a = GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offers = better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop = work).
 
 
From: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components
 
Thanks for the input. It = has confirmed my intuition to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for = this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have = funds for 2 of those. :-( 
No need for 10bit output = here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this machine.
 
On Thu, = Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
okay I'm seeing a lot of = mixed advice. The problem here is that there is a major real-world = consequence of getting the wrong type of processor these days, and it is = REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR workflow
 
The big = points - 
 
-= Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. = They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as = fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where = you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical = infrastructure. Nobody is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. 
- The = same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try to sell = you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are extremely = expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This = is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more = expensive ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of cores = means each core is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks = in Cinema are still single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on = doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), = or high end simulation work in houdini etc. 
- = Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this is = based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good = but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU = tasks. 
-= Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now is = the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the "open = fan" designs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside your = case. 
 
I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're = saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high = megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid = cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. = And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed there due to manufacturing = shortages, supposedly. 
 
I am = currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, = 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say avoid = Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues
-Teddy 
<= /div>
= --Apple-Mail=_F1C173B7-2657-462D-AE36-1363774AD3E6--