From: "J Bills" Received: from [40.92.13.50] (HELO NAM05-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7243120 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:59:59 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=WMoSM8M+hdxSZgEeEzpCYm902Wa1QGBKeFe4sah1tK4=; b=o3RvngLVnYFiVzGTY+UPb4p8qYbY8hHFXY6bOS3NLrsJzKPYvPvnyYgcdbnEZ9zxn+hafi4INqEy8zLNmF0Kl7exsbvNy6gVUlOs7bkHs25XKhgY4eT/rtMBZdpR5gSZ9rzu8mKMAiAuYWc6uMECkFs7aDN9UU9YaEfPhVm1gSOlokJelrW7OQFAuikxx7ZG6Hq8wI3ggY0J5pQg3/ViCmCo1Rkd6r5SHUufcnTQ8EGHaMDvm/hmp/DLttEKmEO0nLF9u4sjJLkWd3oXbrBjvcCrjO0HlAN/k2uWFKHr4iSavOwP7NavZLRnOLSC6auWK26YmEGSjhyfPCFNHXYdyQ== Received: from CO1NAM05FT050.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.96.54) by CO1NAM05HT067.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.97.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.2; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:10:16 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3112.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.152.96.55) by CO1NAM05FT050.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.96.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.2 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:10:16 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3112.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1855:efdd:8bea:8154]) by BYAPR11MB3112.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1855:efdd:8bea:8154%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1601.023; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:10:16 +0000 To: Carey Dissmore Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Thread-Topic: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Thread-Index: AQHUwhYNK/Hcdj6CNkaMk2PQMGYTxKXa/MHa Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 20:10:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:CF921B59201DA34FC76632CFED132333B0D99B83C1949FF0182CFB3AE8F9284C;UpperCasedChecksum:EB7CBFD5E06FA9F8A0D97B4F50C07E9ACD59FF93029A60E503BDD5D10A440DB7;SizeAsReceived:6866;Count:45 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [RUdDxmnhmZsZR82uj8ibqKpLOaUQQ5kQ] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO1NAM05HT067;6:W77yWiWCm31bkghk10C/dqUX4cgN9CPMz6ZCDieZ9rD0L6colkzkiweIaAX07QDf53CocM9cuGu33qUovakKMyWxzoG/uh3UJ3B3LR67x23/Ok+NkIDLFBm3MICkzt4a+sE6Ecy/G04bqZOvW/px39SbLZcI+9VZ5ytcZ4/JY4p7k1LaJoaMvSZmNqhD0lbFLV+IKc8PwsmfNNebr0XYu1/c2ikSW6MYCdxmStU1vDnZVTXmbh5QgXuBPpzhOpAOnb+s60+LmyEXuCWJR/26ohpqwo9be5lfQoOXAEPLuQbk4nrBTWAP0isL3kSFJ28q9/BIbADgCy8E3vof68ZJONlYK+NdpImNPPxMpyx8c6Sr0iGWlVbIWXQOTFDluAcyjZWj4ZKwpIhYZrkxlB0d66Mgisfc9YMKtZDPbkzsQtnZB8lVQZ+0mW15kMAN1mfw1eJojlXajPEvcVUFq6sUCA==;5:JSK4OMlF+7L6yMj/WxhNqtI21NpergcVjBsjd2Q9VY+1vM6bCg7l6RL6TKJPMNOtQpJG5g3afbWIFPaYP23xqu0zz0tkHo8j2pFIi7ESCo75emF2mYGure0XFCwugSbKfpBRgHhb+LrtgVfNqspgrLdRjmPMNIGn9ALtMAZZXb5+gRGmIAlpvWbzyQhNKyTbvQdD0YbTAP7iy5GpA0GlJw==;7:6IGpawmeWFPsC87xAm1UovNxhRATm2N7e/uk4MdY5MP7fu3AFVi51nn5mxdVSVT3eNuLzs9y/pbGIadUYqwTKLfkAR2ssqWJzFtcsQ05plvw9CGzC8MvJ+urJGBEg6ocTh8CFfvt5KYzfFhDZ9Sjew== x-incomingheadercount: 45 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031323274)(2017031324274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045);SRVR:CO1NAM05HT067; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CO1NAM05HT067: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(4566010)(82015058);SRVR:CO1NAM05HT067;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO1NAM05HT067; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 8GvQ4zayNewmA2AOtnOIPZDTqKTLKImPT7YifS3BIU4HiSDfRuQOVnBfKlYSbTSz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR11MB3112771AB82FE20F59297C72B9640BYAPR11MB3112namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 24fd1209-d934-423e-a578-ee886993c07f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 301181a4-472c-483c-f034-08d6905cf087 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 24fd1209-d934-423e-a578-ee886993c07f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Feb 2019 20:10:16.5815 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO1NAM05HT067 --_000_BYAPR11MB3112771AB82FE20F59297C72B9640BYAPR11MB3112namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great thread! Just to echo a couple of points - one of the nice things I e= njoy about a self build is the ability to swap in components over the life = of the box. There are some clever things you can do here vs being relativ= ely locked out of an Apple, HP or Dell box (other than simple things like a= dding RAM or another drive, maybe GPU). Can pay off long term! I sometime= s liken it to the hot rodders out at the race track doing everything they c= an to shave seconds off of their time, vs the same cars used for commuters.= We are not commuters. Once you're in at the discrete component level, most cases can accommodate = a next gen motherboard when it's time to wind it up again, and good power s= upplies, hard drives, SSDs can last more than one build. Upgrading individ= ual bits is great - you know, swap in a larger power supply if you're addin= g in more GPUs or the like. Instead of replacing the whole machine. This = sort of life cycle flexibility isn't present when buying from major manufac= turers, as people tend to try to sell machines intact as purchased later an= d not mod them much. I tend to get into the most recent chipset motherboard I can afford, and I = factor in expansion later. Many times I can only afford 64gb RAM up front= , but I plan for 128 eventually and often times doing it this way allows me= to wait until black friday or whatever to get the best price on the 2nd ha= lf. Also, I've historically had a pattern where I'll buy a more conservative CP= U, like the sort of "standard" K chip - 6800k i7 for example. And then lat= er in the cycle, I'll pull it in favor of whatever beastly top of the line = CPU they produced for that chipset was (like the 6950X). Prices drop down = out of the stratosphere on those beasts a couple years on, and especially h= ere in Portland (with Intel in town) there's a lively 2nd hand market. Eba= y as well. If you have the technical capability to swap a CPU and can veri= fy you're getting a good one - new or working system pull - you can easily = squeeze more life of a machine and keep it relevant without a total teardow= n. And then sell parts off as needed - always gamers ready to gobble up our= used stuff. Another point I like to bring up with self builds is the fact that it unloc= ks overclocking. It's *really* easy to replace the stock Intel or AMD fan = with an aftermarket one, and bump a conservative 10-15% without consequence= . Making, for example, a 4.5ghz CPU 5ghz. It was funny - when I was in he= avy production and running a larger studio, the freelancers would sometimes= comment "J, I love working here - your machines just seem faster!" Well y= eah... because they are. Not all CPUs even of the same model respond iden= tically and each is different, but 10-15% with rock solid stability is fair= ly predictable. Of course, ymmv and do your own research, but I never had = any ill effects or long term problems show from this. As Carey mentioned, it's not just 2d/edit vs 3d box any more - there's the = Resolve wildcard as well, and that app can add a layer of complexity hardwa= re wise. I suppose there's a range to it, and that just doing an unsupervi= sed color pass that previously you would have handled in AE isn't as bad as= having to build a proper color suite - but I was a bit intimidated when ge= tting into that about just how many different variables are involved and ho= w many ways you can take it. Sometime to consider on the GPU side for sure= . -J Bills (why are we signing, btw? are names not visible on the forum version of th= e list?) ________________________________ From: After Effects Mail List on behalf of Carey = Dissmore Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 6:27 AM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components A few comments: Puget Systems REALLY gets it when it comes to addressing the needs of our m= arket. They have a model where they do a ton of research and provide excell= ent support for their tested, configured system designs. They share a lot o= f their data and findings on their website, which benefits the community as= a whole. They are uniquely positioned to do this type of testing and I=92m= very thankful they share. For the vast majority of people who do NOT have = interest in building their own systems, but nevertheless are realizing that= a custom workstation is truly the best path forward for their needs, I can= =92t think of a better choice. Now onto the geek stuff, (which Puget already knows): A - Building PC: I=92m inclined towards PC building too, and have built man= y workstation machines. I built my first PC around 2001 mostly for gaming a= nd offloaded encoding/rendering but I largely stuck with Mac for post produ= ction work until about 2012 when I made the complete jump to primary post p= roduction on Windows workstations. Teddy and I had a good chat on the phone= back then just to gut check my system architecture before pulling the trig= ger on a $6k box build. I=92ve built and rebuilt many since. B-Performance: It used to be that synthetic benchmarks were quite useful in= determining performance as it applied to video post work. You pretty much = always needed the highest performance hardware you could get and there wasn= =92t a whole lot of differentiation about tasks, as it all sort of lifted w= ith the general performance of the machine. You could look at relative perf= ormance and extrapolate your value or expected performance for the apps and= work you did and make a decision about value for money/ROI/Cost-benefit wi= th some simple math. Those days are over. That won=92t work anymore. The trend for nearly a deca= de is that PC performance gains have forked in multiple directions: CPUs ha= ve added cores, and clock speed increases have crept higher but very slowly= . Due to thermals, you are often left with a choice of more cores vs more c= lock speed. GPUs have introduced massive parallelism tuned for specific com= pute loads but data has to be moved from memory/fast CPU access over the bu= s to the GPU and back so that is a factor in determining which types of =93= loads=94 are best suited to GPU compute. The problem is that synthetic benc= hmarks can be designed to torture test a specific type of computing load th= at shows maximized performance of a particular component but it has never b= een less relevant to apply those to your expectations in the apps you ACTUA= LLY USE to do post production work. Therefore, the ONLY benchmarks that are relevant are the ones that are done= by testing the apps you ACTUALLY USE to determine a particular component o= r configuration=92s value to you. Here=92s some apps that I use and what I = have found they need from a machine. For example here=92s some differing compute loads and what types of PC hard= ware/config will serve it well. Storage (applies to all): Everything wants fast storage and IO. Splitting u= p storage between media and boot and cache, each optimized is good. Storage= /cacheing has become an issue too and managing the flow of data and using h= igh performance caching devices separate from both system drive and media s= torage is key to optimizing. As you look at the applications below AE: In daily use, largely still single threaded operations with dashes of m= ultithreading throughout, and a splash of GPU compute here and there, parti= cularly on plugins/effects. Today, this means favoring higher clock speeds = over core count on the CPU. Get as much RAM as you can justify because AE a= nd RAM previews will use it. Generally AE-only artists don=92t need tons of= data storage, but what they have should be fast. Often they are best serve= d by something like a 9900k system and a modest GPU from NVidia. Note that one of the challenges of optimizing AE for multithreading is that= not every type of compute task lends itself well to parallelism. Sometimes= you have to wait for the result of one computation to use the result of th= at to start the next computation. This same performance optimization issue = also affects other similar apps like Fusion. Premiere: A little more balanced between CPU cores and clock speed and GPU.= Having said that Premiere still favors clock speed over massive core count= , can take advantage of Quicksync on newer Intel CPUs BTW, and uses GPU but= does not rely heavily on it and primarily processes color and effects on G= PU (with some exceptions). Premiere doesn=92t require quite as much RAM as = AE, but I guess it doesn=92t hurt. Having said that Premiere seems to need = an awful lot of compute hardware thrown at it to smoothly handle media at 4= k. By comparison FCPX (which I don=92t use because it=92s Mac only) is way = more optimized and gets better performance from lesser hardware. I think th= ere=92s a lot of room for improvement for Premiere here but it probably mea= ns a rewrite. Encoding: h264 or now h265 encoding is massively parallel and really shows = off what a lot of cores can do. Currently CPU dominated we=92re starting to= see this moving to GPU options as well. If all you did all day was encode = stuff, go for core count and fast IO. However, for most of us, encoding occ= upies only a few minutes per day compared to creative work. Resolve: GPU dominated (for color page operations anyway). Here, CPU perfor= mance matters but a mid-line CPU is probably adequate but what you want are= GPU compute units. The best units you can afford, plus more of them. 2 or = 3 GPUs scale really well with Resolve, but in my testing I=92ve found it be= st to keep them matched. I did some mismatched testing with different gen G= PUs and it=92s pretty variable and inefficient. Not that every little bit d= oesn=92t help=85but one card ends up waiting on the other to finish a task.= PCI-E lanes required for multi-GPU support push the user to go with higher= level platforms like X299. Cinema 4D: When rendering, massive CPU core count is your friend. But when = modeling, key framing, animating etc a lot fo that is more single threaded = but obviously previews can be run OpenGL (etc) on the GPU. Other renderers = are GPU-dominant. 3D is not my forte so I=92m going to let others cover thi= s. But I said all of that as a preface to make this point: You can choose any = one activity or app and build a kick-butt machine tuned specifically to the= requirements of that activity, and walk away with maximized ROI. An AE-onl= y machine is going to look quite different than a Resolve-only machine, and= again quite different from a C4D optimized machine. But often we need to e= ngage in a mix of activities and the choice about whether to try to build t= he ultimate =93do it all=94 workstation ($$$$) vs separating the tasks is s= omething we all have to look at in light of our own mix of work. Anyway, when I sat down I had no idea I=92d write ll that but alas, the cof= fee was good and plentiful. Plus, when you really get into this stuff there= are just a lot of considerations to get your head around. By no means did = I write a definitive guide here (is there such a thing?) and understand why= Chris Zwar=92s is over 10,000 words. I look forward to it. Carey Dissmore On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:33 AM, Byron Nash > wrote: Puget really impressed me with the depth and detail of their hardware analy= sis for very targeted demographics. It's nice to have someone really unders= tand what the difference is between editing, motion graphics and GPU render= ing. On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:52 PM Teddy Gage > wrote: Sure thing Chris, feel free to reach me at teddygage@gmail.com. Goes for anyone- always happy to consult or chat hardware = or software. Have also been doing a fair amount of VFX supervising recently= for a couple TV shows. On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:14 PM Chris Zwar > wrote: Hi all, I started researching performance last year, with a view to writing up an a= rticle and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition. Currently I'm about 5= 0% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 words so it's a bit slow = going. Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are especia= lly interested and knowledgable on performance related matters. Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to approach for input and th= is thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me know the best way t= o contact you off-list please? And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or strong opinions on p= erformance/ components then let me know too. Cheers, -Chris On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron Nash > wrote: Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep that in mind going forward. I= am planning to use a Blackmagic card for video output but the monitors I h= ave to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm starting to get into 4K VFX for films= on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD promos/mogra= ph content. My only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you have a 4K scree= n it won't downscale through the card and just goes black. On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Stephen van Vuuren > wrote: > In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a Black= magic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of 10bit YU= V or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of these are avail= able for as little as $200. I mentioned external card but you are not budgeting for the 4K 10-bit displ= ay that you will need to see the output. I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=92s great going out to a 50=94 HDR T= V). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display or apps tha= t don=92t support that card. You have to have a second monitor where as Qua= dro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor. If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plus additional monitor is n= ot an option. And even if you do, my setup I would rather always see 10-bit= as much as possible in all my work and catch issues. As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for low-end, 10-bit is going t= o be a bigger deal. From: After Effects Mail List > Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components If you=92re talking about a budget system Quadro cards aren=92t even in the= conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the main uses of the machine wi= ll be Redshift you=92re better off buying the fastest GTX or RTX card(s) yo= u can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the near fu= ture, if Nvidia=92s and Redshift=92s recent announcements are to be believe= d. In regards to 10bit output an option not being discussed is using a Blackma= gic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you the option of 10bit YUV = or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable versions of these are availab= le for as little as $200. Dennis Wilkins On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren > wrote: Steve, That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is for games and Direct X apps= =96 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and most other pro post apps do= n=92t use or support DirectX. And just because a driver or monitor flags 10= -bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening. Better info is here: https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-su= pport From: After Effects Mail List > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components 10bit display support is all over the place on mac. MBP 2016 is driving a 2= 4=94 external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving the native display in 8bit= . recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 10bit. you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here is how to run nV or AMD o= n win10 in 10bit https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphi= cs-Card-Software-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/ S On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren > wrote: >>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a Quadro. The= y are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast fo= r rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you need e= xtreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. No= body is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. I disagree that 10-bit is =93unlikely=94. It=92s more of a ignorance of ben= efits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pro colorist and post house= delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow noise and color/gamma probl= ems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See = it all the time. Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and char= ge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same =93looks/soun= ds great here!=94. GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or images in Photoshop in 10= -bit, period or most any other pro app. You have to have a monitor card goi= ng to a separate, second monitor. That card or box + monitor for a 4K setup= is not cheap. Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support with Quadros and Mac is n= ow fully supported. Most people think they do don=92t need 10-bit output but end up delivering = work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR environments or displays with= wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering panels out there). DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix, Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, = YouTube HDR is 10-bit.https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl= =3Den If you=92re delivering 10-bit and while it used to be rare, these days almo= st everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher. So I just don=92t take people mastering final projects for professional del= iver very seriously that don=92t have a fully 10-bit or higher workflow. Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less mon= ey than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and offer= s better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop work)= . From: After Effects Mail List > Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM To: After Effects Mail List > Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuition to stay away from the Q= uadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now= . Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-( No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV promos on this machine. On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage > wrote: okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem here is that there is a = major real-world consequence of getting the wrong type of processor these d= ays, and it is REALLY important to buy the right system for YOUR workflow The big points - - Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) do not get a quadro. They = are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows and are 1/10th as fast for = rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use cases where you need ext= reme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobo= dy is using Quadros for Redshift / Octane. - The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon system. Many builders try to s= ell you on xeons because they can make more markup on it. They are extremel= y expensive and offer little to no performance benefits vs. i7 or i9. This = is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensi= ve ECC RAM required (not necessary). The large number of cores means each c= ore is slower than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are st= ill single-threaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU ren= dering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon anyway), or high end simulation w= ork in houdini etc. - Basically - the more cores you have, the slower each core is, this is bas= ed on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD TR chips are good but the = same applies - only necessary for pure multithreaded CPU tasks. - Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd look at right now is the= GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower" models and not the "open fan" de= signs, as those tend to just push hot air around inside your case. I'm not going into a specific parts list but from what you're saying I'd be= looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cores, high megahertz boost = / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liquid cooling (a 360mm radi= ator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have b= lown up and stayed there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly. I am currently rocking a machine I built with the core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti,= 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does great. I will say avoid Asus = motherboards for now, they can have issues -Teddy -- _____________________________ Teddy Gage President Shotgun Inc. 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX SHOTGUNPOST.COM BKLYN NY 11215 --_000_BYAPR11MB3112771AB82FE20F59297C72B9640BYAPR11MB3112namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great thread!  Just to echo a couple of points - one of the nice thing= s I enjoy about a self build is the ability to swap in components over the = life of the box.   There are some clever things you can do here vs being relatively= locked out of an Apple, HP or Dell box (other than simple things like addi= ng RAM or another drive, maybe GPU).  Can pay off long term!  I s= ometimes liken it to the hot rodders out at the race track doing everything they can to shave seconds off of their tim= e, vs the same cars used for commuters.  We are not commuters.
Once you're in at the discrete component level, most cases can accom= modate a next gen motherboard when it's time to wind it up again, and good = power supplies, hard drives, SSDs can last more than one build.  Upgra= ding individual bits is great - you know, swap in a larger power supply if you're adding in more GPUs or the like.&n= bsp; Instead of replacing the whole machine.  This sort of life cycle = flexibility isn't present when buying from major manufacturers, as people t= end to try to sell machines intact as purchased later and not mod them much.
I tend to get into the most recent chipset motherboard I can afford, and I = factor in expansion later.   Many times I can only afford 64gb RA= M up front, but I plan for 128 eventually and often times doing it this way= allows me to wait until black friday or whatever to get the best price on the 2nd half.
Also, I've historically had a pattern where I'll buy a more conservative CP= U, like the sort of "standard" K chip - 6800k i7 for example.&nbs= p; And then later in the cycle, I'll pull it in favor of whatever beastly t= op of the line CPU they produced for that chipset was (like the 6950X).  Prices drop down out of the stratosphere on th= ose beasts a couple years on, and especially here in Portland (with Intel i= n town) there's a lively 2nd hand market.  Ebay as well.  If you = have the technical capability to swap a CPU and can verify you're getting a good one - new or working system pull - you ca= n easily squeeze more life of a machine and keep it relevant without a tota= l teardown. And then sell parts off as needed - always gamers ready to gobb= le up our used stuff.
Another point I like to bring up with self builds is the fact that it unloc= ks overclocking.  It's *really* easy to replace the stock Intel or AMD= fan with an aftermarket one, and bump a conservative 10-15% without conseq= uence.  Making, for example, a 4.5ghz CPU 5ghz.  It was funny - when I was in heavy production and running = a larger studio, the freelancers would sometimes comment "J, I love wo= rking here - your machines just seem faster!"  Well yeah... = because they are.  Not all CPUs even of the same model respond identically and each is different, but 10-15% with rock solid stability is= fairly predictable.  Of course, ymmv and do your own research, but I = never had any ill effects or long term problems show from this.
As Carey mentioned, it's not just 2d/edit vs 3d box any more - there's the = Resolve wildcard as well, and that app can add a layer of complexity hardwa= re wise.  I suppose there's a range to it, and that just doing an unsu= pervised color pass that previously you would have handled in AE isn't as bad as having to build a proper color su= ite - but I was a bit intimidated when getting into that about just how man= y different variables are involved and how many ways you can take it. = Sometime to consider on the GPU side for sure.
-J Bills
(why are we signing, btw?  are names not visible on the forum version = of the list?)


From: After Effects Mail Li= st <AE-List@media-motion.tv> on behalf of Carey Dissmore <AE-List@= media-motion.tv>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 6:27 AM
To: After Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components
 

Puget Systems REALLY gets it when it comes to addressing th= e needs of our market. They have a model where they do a ton of research an= d provide excellent support for their tested, configured system designs. Th= ey share a lot of their data and findings on their website, which benefits the community as a whole. They are unique= ly positioned to do this type of testing and I=92m very thankful they share= . For the vast majority of people who do NOT have interest in building thei= r own systems, but nevertheless are realizing that a custom workstation is truly the best path forward for the= ir needs, I can=92t think of a better choice. 

Now onto the geek stuff, (which Puget already knows):

A - Building PC: I=92m inclined towards PC building too, an= d have built many workstation machines. I built my first PC around 2001 mos= tly for gaming and offloaded encoding/rendering but I largely stuck with Ma= c for post production work until about 2012 when I made the complete jump to primary post production on Windows w= orkstations. Teddy and I had a good chat on the phone back then just to gut= check my system architecture before pulling the trigger on a $6k box build= . I=92ve built and rebuilt many since. 

B-Performance: It used to be that synthetic benchmarks were= quite useful in determining performance as it applied to video post work. = You pretty much always needed the highest performance hardware you could ge= t and there wasn=92t a whole lot of differentiation about tasks, as it all sort of lifted with the general per= formance of the machine. You could look at relative performance and extrapo= late your value or expected performance for the apps and work you did and m= ake a decision about value for money/ROI/Cost-benefit with some simple math.  

Those days are over. That won=92t work anymore. The trend f= or nearly a decade is that PC performance gains have forked in multiple dir= ections: CPUs have added cores, and clock speed increases have crept higher= but very slowly. Due to thermals, you are often left with a choice of more cores vs more clock speed. GPUs have = introduced massive parallelism tuned for specific compute loads but data ha= s to be moved from memory/fast CPU access over the bus to the GPU and back = so that is a factor in determining which types of =93loads=94 are best suited to GPU compute. The problem is = that synthetic benchmarks can be designed to torture test a specific type o= f computing load that shows maximized performance of a particular component= but it has never been less relevant to apply those to your expectations in the apps you ACTUALLY USE to do pos= t production work. 

Therefore, the ONLY benchmarks that are relevant are the on= es that are done by testing the apps you ACTUALLY USE to determine a partic= ular component or configuration=92s value to you. Here=92s some apps that I= use and what I have found they need from a machine. 

For example here=92s some differing compute loads and what = types of PC hardware/config will serve it well. 

Storage (applies to all): Everything wants fast storage and= IO. Splitting up storage between media and boot and cache, each optimized = is good. Storage/cacheing has become an issue too and managing the flow of = data and using high performance caching devices separate from both system drive and media storage is key to optimi= zing. As you look at the applications below

AE: In daily use, largely still single threaded operations = with dashes of multithreading throughout, and a splash of GPU compute here = and there, particularly on plugins/effects. Today, this means favoring high= er clock speeds over core count on the CPU. Get as much RAM as you can justify because AE and RAM previews wi= ll use it. Generally AE-only artists don=92t need tons of data storage, but= what they have should be fast. Often they are best served by something lik= e a 9900k system and a modest GPU from NVidia. 
Note that one of the challenges of optimizing AE for multit= hreading is that not every type of compute task lends itself well to parall= elism. Sometimes you have to wait for the result of one computation to use = the result of that to start the next computation. This same performance optimization issue also affects other s= imilar apps like Fusion. 

Premiere: A little more balanced between CPU cores and cloc= k speed and GPU. Having said that Premiere still favors clock speed over ma= ssive core count, can take advantage of Quicksync on newer Intel CPUs BTW, = and uses GPU but does not rely heavily on it and primarily processes color and effects on GPU (with some exceptio= ns). Premiere doesn=92t require quite as much RAM as AE, but I guess it doe= sn=92t hurt. Having said that Premiere seems to need an awful lot of comput= e hardware thrown at it to smoothly handle media at 4k. By comparison FCPX (which I don=92t use because it=92s= Mac only) is way more optimized and gets better performance from lesser ha= rdware. I think there=92s a lot of room for improvement for Premiere here b= ut it probably means a rewrite.

Encoding: h264 or now h265 encoding is massively parallel a= nd really shows off what a lot of cores can do. Currently CPU dominated we= =92re starting to see this moving to GPU options as well. If all you did al= l day was encode stuff, go for core count and fast IO. However, for most of us, encoding occupies only a few minutes= per day compared to creative work.

Resolve: GPU dominated (for color page operations anyway). = Here, CPU performance matters but a mid-line CPU is probably adequate but w= hat you want are GPU compute units. The best units you can afford, plus mor= e of them. 2 or 3 GPUs scale really well with Resolve, but in my testing I=92ve found it best to keep them mat= ched. I did some mismatched testing with different gen GPUs and it=92s pret= ty variable and inefficient. Not that every little bit doesn=92t help=85but= one card ends up waiting on the other to finish a task. PCI-E lanes required for multi-GPU support push the user to= go with higher level platforms like X299. 

Cinema 4D: When rendering, massive CPU core count is your f= riend. But when modeling, key framing, animating etc a lot fo that is more = single threaded but obviously previews can be run OpenGL (etc) on the GPU. = Other renderers are GPU-dominant. 3D is not my forte so I=92m going to let others cover this.

But I said all of that as a preface to make this point: You= can choose any one activity or app and build a kick-butt machine tuned spe= cifically to the requirements of that activity, and walk away with maximize= d ROI. An AE-only machine is going to look quite different than a Resolve-only machine, and again quite diffe= rent from a C4D optimized machine. But often we need to engage in a mix of = activities and the choice about whether to try to build the ultimate =93do = it all=94 workstation ($$$$) vs separating the tasks is something we all have to look at in light of our own mix of w= ork.

Anyway, when I sat down I had no idea I=92d write ll that b= ut alas, the coffee was good and plentiful. Plus, when you really get into = this stuff there are just a lot of considerations to get your head around. = By no means did I write a definitive guide here (is there such a thing?) and understand why Chris Zwar=92s is o= ver 10,000 words. I look forward to it.

Carey Dissmore



On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:33 AM, Byron Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrot= e:

Puget really impressed me with the depth and de= tail of their hardware analysis for very targeted demographics. It's nice t= o have someone really understand what the difference is between editing, mo= tion graphics and GPU rendering. 

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:52 PM Te= ddy Gage <AE-List@= media-motion.tv> wrote:
Sure thing Chris, feel free to reach me at teddygage@gmail.com. Goes for anyone- always happy to consult or chat h= ardware or software. Have also been doing a fair amount of VFX supervising = recently for a couple TV shows. 

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:14 PM Ch= ris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Hi all,

I started researching performance last year, with a view to= writing up an article and some thoughts for the ProVideo Coalition.  = Currently I'm about 50% of the way through my plan and I'm over 10,000 word= s so it's a bit slow going.  Even so, I was wanting to reach out to list members who are especially interested and= knowledgable on performance related matters.

Teddy & Stephen were both on my list of people to appro= ach for input and this thread just reinforces that! Are you two able let me= know the best way to contact you off-list please?
And if there's anyone else who has strong knowledge or stro= ng opinions on performance/ components then let me know too.

Cheers,

-Chris


On Sat, 9 Feb 2019 at 07:18, Byron = Nash <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Those are good thoughts Stephen and I'll keep t= hat in mind going forward. I am planning to use a Blackmagic card for = video output but the monitors I have to use right now are 8bit HD. I'm star= ting to get into 4K VFX for films on my machine but most of the rest of the team is building HD promos/mograph content. My= only pet peeve with the BM cards is when you have a 4K screen it won't dow= nscale through the card and just goes black. 

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 11:10 AM Ste= phen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

> In regards to 10bit output an option not bein= g discussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will giv= e you the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable= versions of these are available for as little as $200.

 

I mentioned external card but you are not budgetin= g for the 4K 10-bit display that you will need to see the output.

 

I have a $199 BM MiniMonitor 4K and it=92s great g= oing out to a 50=94 HDR TV). But that does not get you 4K 10-bit on your desktop display o= r apps that don=92t support that card. You have to have a second monito= r where as Quadro allows you to have 4K 10-bit on your main desktop monitor= .

 

If you only have room for on 4K 10-bit, a card plu= s additional monitor is not an option. And even if you do, my setup I would= rather always see 10-bit as much as possible in all my work and catch issu= es.

 

As video moves to 10-bit and HDR in 4K, even for l= ow-end, 10-bit is going to be a bigger deal.

 

From: After Effects Mail List &l= t;A= E-List@media-motion.tv>
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 12:25 AM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv&= gt;
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation components

 

If you=92re talking about a budget system Quadro c= ards aren=92t even in the conversation (5k was mentioned). If one of the ma= in uses of the machine will be Redshift you=92re better off buying the fast= est GTX or RTX card(s) you can afford. The RTX cards may end up being a better choice in the near future, if Nvidia= =92s and Redshift=92s recent announcements are to be believed.

 

In regards to 10bit output an option not being dis= cussed is using a Blackmagic or Aja PCI card or device. These will give you= the option of 10bit YUV or RGB output (monitor dependent). 4K capable vers= ions of these are available for as little as $200.


Dennis Wilkins

 



On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:49 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <= ;AE= -List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

 

Steve,

 

That link is for 10-bit DirectX output which is fo= r games and Direct X apps =96 not relevant to this discussion. Adobe and mo= st other pro post apps don=92t use or support DirectX. And just because a d= river or monitor flags 10-bit does not mean there is actually 10-bits happening.<= /u>


Better info is here: https://imagescience.com.au/knowledge/10-bit-output-supp= ort

 

From: After Effects Mail = List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 11:40 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation componen= ts

 

10bit display support is all over the place on mac= . MBP 2016 is driving a 24=94 external HDMI monitor in 10bit will driving t= he native display in 8bit. recent model imacs with 5K displays running in 1= 0bit. 

 

you can get nV cards on win to run in 10bit. here = is how to run nV or AMD on win10 in 10bit  https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Setting-Graphics-Card-S= oftware-to-Display-10-bit-Output-1221/

 

 

S




On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:25 PM, Stephen van Vuuren &l= t;<= span class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple">AE-List@media-motion.tv&g= t; wrote:

 

>>> Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (= unlikely) do not get a Quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM w= orkflows and are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are inten= ded for use cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane. 

 

I disagree that 10-bit is =93unlikely=94. It=92s m= ore of a ignorance of benefits that an unlikely scenario. I get a lot of pr= o colorist and post house delivering stuff with banding, too much shadow no= ise and color/gamma problems that have obviously been graded in 8-bit on typical 1000:1 panels. See it all the time. 


Same as I see people mixing on headphones or uncalibrated speakers and char= ge pro prices for the service. The defense is always the same =93looks/soun= ds great here!=94.

 

GeForce cards cannot display video in Premiere or = images in Photoshop in 10-bit, period or most any other pro app. You have t= o have a monitor card going to a separate, second monitor. That card or box= + monitor for a 4K setup is not cheap.=

 

Quadro cards offer native 10-bit OS level support = with Quadros and Mac is now fully supported.

 

Most people think they do don=92t need 10-bit outp= ut but end up delivering work that looks bad in 10-bit, 12-bit and HDR envi= ronments or displays with wider than the 8-bit (and 6-bit+dithering pan= els out there).

 

DCP is 12-bit. Rec2020 is 10-bit as is all Netflix= , Amazon etc. HDR> Hell, YouTube HDR is 10-bit.<= span class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple">https://support.google.com/youtube/a= nswer/7126552?hl=3Den

 

If you=92re delivering 10-bit and while it used to= be rare, these days almost everything I deliver is 10 bit or higher.


So I just don=92t take people mastering final projects for professional del= iver very seriously that don=92t have a fully 10-bit or higher workflow.


Quadro plus a good affordable HDR 4K 10-bit monitor is the same or less mon= ey than a GeForce + 10-bit video output plus dedicated 4K display and o= ffers better drivers, more stability and more flexibility (like Photoshop w= ork).

 

 

From: After Effects Mail = List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 2:04 PM
To: After Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subject: Re: [AE] Feedback on Workstation componen= ts

 

Thanks for the input. It has confirmed my intuitio= n to stay away from the Quadro and Xeon for this build. Looking at either 2= x 2080's or 1x 2080ti now. Don't have funds for 2 of those. :-( 

No need for 10bit output here. Mostly making HD TV= promos on this machine.

 

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 10:58 AM Teddy Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wr= ote:

okay I'm seeing a lot of mixed advice. The problem= here is that there is a major real-world consequence of getting the wrong = type of processor these days, and it is REALLY important to buy the right s= ystem for YOUR workflow

 

The big points - 

 

- Unless you NEED 10 bit color output (unlikely) d= o not get a quadro. They are intended for industrial CAD / CAM workflows an= d are 1/10th as fast for rendering CUDA Redshift. They are intended for use= cases where you need extreme floating point precision, like designing critical infrastructure. Nobody is using Q= uadros for Redshift / Octane. 

- The same goes for Xeons. Do not get a xeon syste= m. Many builders try to sell you on xeons because they can make more markup= on it. They are extremely expensive and offer little to no performance ben= efits vs. i7 or i9. This is basically due to A) lack of overclocking ability and B) way more expensive ECC RAM r= equired (not necessary). The large number of cores means each core is slowe= r than the equivalent i7/i9. AE and most tasks in Cinema are still single-t= hreaded. The exception is if you plan on doing a lot of CPU rendering in Arnold (which is going GPU soon an= yway), or high end simulation work in houdini etc. <= u class=3D"">

- Basically - the more cores you have, the slower = each core is, this is based on thermal and manufacturing limitations. AMD T= R chips are good but the same applies - only necessary for pure multithread= ed CPU tasks. 

- Currently, for future-proofing, the only GPU I'd= look at right now is the GTX 2080ti - but try to find the "blower&quo= t; models and not the "open fan" designs, as those tend to just p= ush hot air around inside your case. <= /u>

 

I'm not going into a specific parts list but from = what you're saying I'd be looking at a system with an i9 chip with 8-12 cor= es, high megahertz boost / OC abvility (4.2-5 Ghz) very good all in one liq= uid cooling (a 360mm radiator is essential), and one or two GTX 2080ti's. And yes, RAM prices have blown up and stayed = there due to manufacturing shortages, supposedly. 

 

I am currently rocking a machine I built with the = core i7 7900X, 4x 1080ti, 128 GB RAM for similar workflows and it does grea= t. I will say avoid Asus motherboards for now, they can have issues

-Teddy 

 

--
_____________________________
Teddy Gage
President
Shotgun Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX
SHOTGUNPOST.COM
BKLYN NY 11215


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