From: "Teddy Gage" Received: from mail-it1-f180.google.com ([209.85.166.180] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7247333 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:57:16 +0100 Received: by mail-it1-f180.google.com with SMTP id x131so10622207itc.3 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 15:07:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OVud3TGEBh0vRZPsolIAWwlgORO9L6J63g8w/+CQ3CY=; b=fieyyH512dNW5UktUqi4obbejiinGqRM7+g3TpvcMqgEXOCS1FdesH9i/f9j0VGz1s 15qNMOGpkcEos2IoAGyIiMXxMDE1vjxZNwx9hnmMTG7ebUsTg0T3kJkH1uMwEgdj5AU4 oDjnIZnZuRakZA0EkSarJBiIOQtcDh8DH0QCRKy4i93i1izeExlwrLdDThkJ+6UE9WFw exBCUrGkPc/Z/vOyTqAGquEh5LS62yrOgNb/LcxNBOMvCib2XGqZXTb7th00ut0o4hCf +LwUkPMQBZtdvV0sbkGpdxlG9d90x4eWZAB20gH43bAalaAObYc75iHifyg2OC3emZk0 kvlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=OVud3TGEBh0vRZPsolIAWwlgORO9L6J63g8w/+CQ3CY=; b=jShjXdXQTcLJfx9kDLhYQd26L1dDDE0l+sVxdk3aPkRpV1W1Lp6qIM/JHWkRJ8isDX 9dq0rsoCnzdOaFbyHtH/REt4VoboY7hMzB3q8oJb7bQAUTUFXyYN8UOtUs9hw3HwmRVk 6OMairm7f9b4L+R1Fn11FEd/YktoRSsgtuYdOOCJOw3khHnxn5+OUg6nEQga87L3YI8h uB2rC44v6SrORDnvicPPWy7djxT38wif1Rvi8VnP9jig2RT/hvukZbxeDE0ae4RtxXS2 Uk/pp5xnHOYAZHuainmthcYqOBIHyp8t4crIDDO4GlTImaKrxpQZHUnDf3LZh1BaeWaX nlhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZBBIyY8Vb0G3As1KJeEuc+jW47qA2Ckiqt4oDYst/OFmLf1RMN JWuOARXUypsEiykxpHGRq+WypqqB89/NQgyHJOXBqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY1lDqul45FcqlyRsaQssbpFeyNFgGktdpUibInu1CbEiysmMmJPG6c548yEt0hmivw5HljZxe2lPR3ahlwP7c= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:69d4:: with SMTP id v20mr14837592oto.41.1550617671019; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 15:07:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:07:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Visually lossless codec thoughts To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076af140582474f69" --00000000000076af140582474f69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen have you tried DWAA-compressed EXR sequences? or does it need to be a video container (sounds like it)? Chris AFAIK cineform files are even bigger than Prores at the same flavor. Other thought - what about H265 or an x264 compressed h264 file using ffmpeg? I find the Adobe implementation of h264 uniformly terrible, via older versions of AE, AME or Premiere. You can get very very clean frames out of x264 at high resolutions using Aftercodecs or ffmpeg command line (also fast). H265 offers even smaller files but unfortunately is very slow to encode. Could be worth a test though. Last thought - have you tried photo-JPEG? One of my go-to codecs for large-res stuff. Great performance and file sizes. minimally lossy -TG On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:50 PM Chris Zwar wrote: > GoPro's Cineform? I don't see you mention it. I'm not sure if it fits > all your requirements but you've obviously tried all the usual suspects s= o > it might be the only other option. > > On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 08:13, Stephen van Vuuren > wrote: > >> Okay, need the collective Borg mind here on visually lossless, low AE >> impact codec to turn PNG sequences into video file. >> >> What AE accessible codec can render out a under 10 megabyte, greater tha= n >> 8-bit, visually lossless file? We've had no success with ProRes, Avid, >> QuickTime, AVI. Compromise would be 8-bit file (but process in AE in >> 32-bit) as the source PNGs are 8-bit. >> >> Noise and artifacts are a huge concern as we have 1.1 million PNGs, each >> of in motion over background of 4 million individual background galaxies >> (23 TIFF 10,000 x 10,000 pixels tiles). >> >> DETAILS: >> >> We are preparing to render out the 8K native fulldome of the film, >> recomposed for the 180 view. We have reached the (in)famous section so m= any >> folks here helped render. Those might recall it was 40 second shot with = 1.1 >> million PNG files and a bunch of large TIFFs. >> >> That render at 5.6k was a 5.5 years on the fastest workstations of two >> years ago. Give we are at 8K, that's a real problem. >> >> We had the idea that turning the dozens of sequence of PNG sequences int= o >> movie files might dramatically improve things. Testing has revealed this= to >> be true as the PNG files, most are so tiny, even the fastest SSD disk IO >> speeds are floppy disk era read speeds. >> >> Here's the problem - AE 2019 has RAM issues. If we render the PNGs to >> 8-bit uncompressed QuickTime, that's about 160GB for each 30,000 image >> sequence. For testing, it we make it a 700MB MP4, render speed nearly >> doubles on a 64GB box. >> >> However MP4 compression introduces noise and artifacts as well as affect= s >> our masking and we are going out to 12-bit DCP. Also, the frame size is >> 1316 x 1316 pixels at 30.000fps (it must be that for our purposes) >> >> Best, >> >> stephen van vuuren >> 336.202.4777 >> >> http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ >> http://www.sv2studios.com/ >> http://www.sv2dcp.com/ >> >> A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like fic= tion. It should >> be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=E2=80=99s behind= the >> emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. >> =E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick >> >> >> What AE accessible codec could render out a under 10 megabyte, greater >> than 8-bit, visually lossless file? We've had no success with ProRes, Av= id, >> QuickTime, AVI. >> >> >> >> +---End of message---+ >> To unsubscribe send any message to >> > --=20 _____________________________ Teddy Gage President Shotgun Inc. 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX SHOTGUNPOST.COM BKLYN NY 11215 --00000000000076af140582474f69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen have you tried DWAA-compressed EXR sequences? or d= oes it need to be a video container (sounds like it)? Chris AFAIK cineform = files are even bigger than Prores at the same flavor.=C2=A0

<= div>Other thought - what about H265 or an x264 compressed h264 file using f= fmpeg? I find the Adobe implementation of h264 uniformly terrible, via olde= r versions of AE, AME or Premiere. You can get very very clean frames out o= f x264 at high resolutions using Aftercodecs or ffmpeg command line (also f= ast). H265 offers even smaller files but unfortunately is very slow to enco= de. Could be worth a test though. Last thought - have you tried photo-JPEG?= One of my go-to codecs for large-res stuff. Great performance and file siz= es. minimally lossy
-TG


=
On Tue= , Feb 19, 2019 at 5:50 PM Chris Zwar <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
GoPro's Cineform?=C2= =A0 I don't see you mention it.=C2=A0 I'm not sure if it fits all y= our requirements but you've obviously tried all the usual suspects so i= t might be the only other option.

On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 08:13, Stephen van = Vuuren <AE-= List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Okay, need the collective Borg mind here on visually lo= ssless, low AE impact codec to turn PNG sequences into video file.

What AE accessible codec can render out a under 10 megabyte, greater than 8= -bit, visually lossless file? We've had no success with ProRes, Avid, Q= uickTime, AVI. Compromise would be 8-bit file (but process in AE in 32-bit)= as the source PNGs are 8-bit.

Noise and artifacts are a huge concern as we have 1.1 million PNGs, each of= in motion over background of 4 million individual background galaxies (23 = TIFF 10,000 x 10,000 pixels tiles).

DETAILS:

We are preparing to render out the 8K native fulldome of the film, recompos= ed for the 180 view. We have reached the (in)famous section so many folks h= ere helped render. Those might recall it was 40 second shot with 1.1 millio= n PNG files and a bunch of large TIFFs.

That render at 5.6k was a 5.5 years on the fastest workstations of two year= s ago. Give we are at 8K, that's a real problem.

We had the idea that turning the dozens of sequence of PNG sequences into m= ovie files might dramatically improve things. Testing has revealed this to = be true as the PNG files, most are so tiny, even the fastest SSD disk IO sp= eeds are floppy disk era read speeds.

Here's the problem - AE 2019 has RAM issues. If we render the PNGs to 8= -bit uncompressed QuickTime, that's about 160GB for each 30,000 image s= equence. For testing, it we make it a 700MB MP4, render speed nearly double= s on a 64GB box.

However MP4 compression introduces noise and artifacts as well as affects o= ur masking and we are going out to 12-bit DCP. Also, the frame size is 1316= x 1316 pixels at 30.000fps (it must be that for our purposes)

Best,
=C2=A0
stephen van vuuren
336.202.4777
=C2=A0
http://www.insaturnsrings.com/
http://www.sv2studios.com/
htt= p://www.sv2dcp.com/
=C2=A0
A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like fictio= n. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=E2=80= =99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.
=E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick


What AE accessible codec could render out a under 10 megabyte, greater than= 8-bit, visually lossless file? We've had no success with ProRes, Avid,= QuickTime, AVI.



+---End of message---+
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--
___________________________= __
Teddy Gage
President
Shotg= un Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX
<= /div>
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