From: "Steve Oakley" Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.197] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7248930 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:18:44 +0100 Received: from [10.1.1.99] ([71.87.57.30]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MZW4R-1gj9uD2YzF-00LESV for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 20:29:25 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1555C285-F10E-4E1F-B717-BCF8ED83A125" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Subject: Re: [AE] Dynamic Link Best Practice Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:29:22 -0600 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <15E4C4C3-C7B1-4587-B2A8-A2A675500B78@practicalillusions.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xd2qkt/ILPKcQk7yb/0GAeknZz3Ix3upr1qtPMsScPFF8tnDFAV obHhjyqMfPd7zippvigNYOM83kiBQxwWBgmSbC4lk14I9R17KRu5EsVPqL85SDkedQGiezT Ny+O08LQS60X2DwDMqgZS0zTp8hmCOxTVj/lEuKnFUC4Je+YUmTWWTylqfJToUJtlFVDVg/ ml+aac2+iNFK3xv/GTA5Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:HNgkKlx1Q9M=:DVkHP/Kh0ffshwegBxBPgw rQUrJdg4dILDOyFB0dHuOAyDQoD8sPhHbGlzzUj39ClN2/7dyffjeTb8U3x7rycusuTHDfgwO cRx/u4JdKqFTqIxEhLVKj3WS1WuooLQFMPow3ndUDc8z7GWQRYJEsEqNg39tLOZZGDhEUQ3sO +nzv1d6vhV5qFWTKylbUqLvLgUIumRjVO8YvKWu0GgXJOKRR/e4sHrKgTgYrH/ZPBdbxm/qSY x3MgDpzJqZmxNtmLamWN31bNFDUd+UtIGTUGSxOmFjQkjisu4NJhUxiDE5mTLdUzphguO9vM4 T9qf3x902SjC+V+zB6b5pkTYZGQTmQu/fUihbsjVWKMhpBaeGQ+quyZpkvbbtVgNQUdiGF1lO q7mRfFslFVU8Rt8BdQUsL94t97i/mZmj395gZ03F2u6hA4mPEv20zmwQ0i15lHHGDYML1gTAZ W2PZQ8GBMY2gbHGS7YDHSQ1F3mapVsgEX/bzmVdAwQcfs5aZXnzK5CGdEdhb7+hgRStU6OC7k P/E5h8Oa6xgMARYKiETslgK7BoAjvM+Jj2ZEHqBgYkgv0ZO+wq/LrnIatfi7zdl6aoi6g/nym 6lVbrzRZPJSw5OSPs3VA7mpUlkiiZiN+GIUDe/88Z8/H1bsN17yncoBF9SOPQJ1RwOQKwhUXo k0s40NbomBSRknq18zkHF4rIHyG06bI+yIrBUoizMrIuQjKeIhlGEQHy6Bwcr0xdfd1S2nuGa yfLSzSslrvKZHFNfeDOHLi5HhmF8/wSnjgLo3uRSq/p8gdro9uhYP2qeppKcFSBCkJQCOdSZo 365Zl0F --Apple-Mail=_1555C285-F10E-4E1F-B717-BCF8ED83A125 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 OpenCL 1.2 is the last officially supported vers on mac. this ver is 10+ = years old. OpenCL is on ver 2.1 or so but has basically been EOL=E2=80=99d= as its been merged into Vulcan. apple was one of the founders of openCL, go figure=E2=80=A6 The goal of Metal is basically the same as OpenCL - use the GPU for = compute work and graphics but the dev doesn=E2=80=99t have to use = hardware specific code. its an API to seperate app level code from = having from the hardware. one of the reasons ( as far as I can tell ) that nV drivers have been = stuck on 387.x.y.z.A is that going a few full number vers higher, nV=E2=80= =99s drivers suppport OpenCL2.0 which is not something apple would like. = Hence in part the same driver level stays put because apple doesn=E2=80=99= t want OCL2 on Mac OS and probably has to do work to make that happen = and has to supply a driver signing cert and won=E2=80=99t. they want = everyone to use Metal2 instead. while CUDA is cross platform, current on all, apple doesn=E2=80=99t like = it. AMD had announced CUDA support of their own flavor but no idea where = that has gone, or not. That of course leaves out Intel GPU=E2=80=99s on = chip, as well as the ARM GPU=E2=80=99s coming in 2020. At this point = apple moving OS X to ARM for at least laptops seems certain and again, = using Metal for apple devices gives devs a universal target=E2=80=A6 = except, well, apple could instead suppport Vulcan but won=E2=80=99t = because they don=E2=80=99t control it. nV drivers for 10.14 are now supposed to be in development between apple = and nV for a couple months. we=E2=80=99ll see how it goes. S > On Feb 22, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Brian Higgins = wrote: >=20 > Is CUDA even supported on Mac hardware going forward? Apple seems to = have an institutional hatred for Nvidia, unfortunately. >=20 > On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jim Curtis > wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve been working on a maxed out 2012 MacPro5,1, but have = found significant gains in Pr by upgrading my GPU to the biggest and = baddest, the Titan X. Most of my work is in Pr, and a CUDA GPU makes a = big difference. >=20 > I wonder how much, if anything is gained by rendering DL-ed Ae Comps = in Pr, but my guess is =E2=80=9Cnot much, if any.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s = due to the fact that Adobe vaunts CUDA for rendering CUDA accelerated = effects and H.264 export, and not everything. >=20 > On my wish list is that Adobe and all third-party vendors would make = their effects CUDA hardware accelerated. And, any other GPU vendor, = FTM. I=E2=80=99ve read that Open CL and Metal are still works in = progress in OSX. True? >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:06 AM, Adam Mercado > wrote: >>=20 >> Thanks Warren. That what I needed to hear.=20 >>=20 >> Teddy, you brought up hardware. Just saying. Anyway, what I meant was = that gains in hardware have stalled in performance comparing the last 5 = years to the five years previous to that. Negligible was not the right = word, incremental maybe more accurate. You need to throw a lot more = money at hardware to get the increases in performance you got a few = years ago. I stand to be corrected on that, it=E2=80=99s just an opinion = I=E2=80=99ve formed from reading the likes of ArsTechnica, Wired, = AEList, etc etc. >>=20 >> AM >>=20 >> On Feb 22, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Warren Heaton > wrote: >>=20 >>> For what it=E2=80=99s worth, as of CC2017 or CC2018 the AE Library = is included in Premiere Pro (I forget when it was implemented). I = thinks it=E2=80=99s made a noticeable difference working with AE Comps = directly in Premiere Pro. =20 >>>=20 >>> I don=E2=80=99t remember if this has been mentioned or not yet: if = upgrading from CC2014, be sure to disable =E2=80=9CRemove old = versions=E2=80=9D when installing CC2018 or CC2019. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -Warren >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>> On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:19 AM, Teddy Gage > wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Adam, clearly I will not get you to change your ways, but as you = said, paying $50 / month for 5 year old software is nuts. Nothing says = you have to abandon 2014, but I literally could not imagine working in = it completely, with all the advancements and improvements and bug fixes = since then. I can't even list them there are so many. I know it's trendy = to hate on AE development since 2014 but many many features that have = come down the pipe have increased my productivity 10x. GPU accelerated = effects and master properties alone are indispensable to my workflow = now. Versioning lower thirds now takes minutes vs. hours. DL is much = more stable than it used to be, and much faster. But I guess if you're = also on 5+ year old hardware, maybe you may not notice much difference. >>>>=20 >>>> Anyway -=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I still don't use DL quite as intended - I use it to create the = initial comp to the appropriate length in AE, and bring in assets. Then = I disable the DL in premiere, render out from AE and bring the clip back = into Premiere. Rendering through Premiere with the AE engine is = incredibly slow, even with the "hack" of closing AE. If the clip is = pre-rendered you're gonna save a ton of time. And native rendering in AE = is much faster than through any external app (AME or pp).=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:33 PM Adam Mercado = > wrote: >>>> No you had it right the first time. I mistyped. I still didn=E2=80=99= t realize it was the case >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Adam Mercado >>>> Owner & Creative Idiot >>>> Influxx Media Production=20 >>>> 714.928.9896 >>>>=20 >>>> Moving Images. For Business >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 6:25 PM, George Loch > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Sorry, I meant that PPro renders slower with AE open. >>>>>=20 >>>>> -gl >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 6:55 PM Adam Mercado = > wrote: >>>>> Thanks George. In what ways is DL better integrated? It=E2=80=99s = really only speed I=E2=80=99m bothered by, although some blending mode = stuff could carry over from AE to PP I suppose.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I did not know about PP rendering faster with AE open. I always = margined it might be the opposite for some reason. Go figure. I=E2=80=99ll= try and compare.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Also, is AME any faster for PP renders than just a basic Export? I = can=E2=80=99t remember if I read that AME was multi threaded and at what = version that happened >>>>>=20 >>>>> Adam Mercado >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 20, 2019, at 5:35 PM, George Loch > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> The integration is better on later versions (Although I have = recently discovered a bug in 2018).=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As to rendering speed, Premiere will render much faster if AE is = closed. Not sure if you have discovered that quick win :) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -gl >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 1:01 PM Adam Mercado = > wrote: >>>>>> I=E2=80=99m sure this topic has been addressed once or twice = before, but in light of the great Optimized System post that was up = recently I wondered if there were any best practices for getting the = most out of DL >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I=E2=80=99m still using CC2014 for PP and AE - not tried the most = recent versions, but hated all the prior versions so I=E2=80=99ve stuck = to what I like and what works (I=E2=80=99m just stoked to be paying = monthly for 5 year old software, but that=E2=80=99s another rant). And = my experience in CC14 with DL is horrible. What takes 10 mins in AE to = render, takes an hour to Preview in PP.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So two things, is DL one of the features that got improved with = later editions? I=E2=80=99ll trade off the other negatives to get better = DL performance if it comes down to that. Also, are there system or = settings optimization=E2=80=99s that can be done to improve DL = performance. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Adam Mercado >>>>>> Owner & Creative Idiot >>>>>> Influxx Media Production=20 >>>>>> 714.928.9896 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Moving Images. For Business >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> +---End of message---+ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send any message to > >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> _____________________________ >>>> Teddy Gage >>>> President >>>> Shotgun Inc. >>>> 360 VR | MOGRAPH | VFX >>>> SHOTGUNPOST.COM >>>> BKLYN NY 11215 >>>>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > brian higgins | creative director > Flavor > ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit =E2=80=A2 tokyo > 312.706.5500 > brian.higgins@flavor.tv > flavor.tv >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1555C285-F10E-4E1F-B717-BCF8ED83A125 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 OpenCL 1.2 is the last officially supported vers on mac. this = ver is 10+ years old. OpenCL is on ver 2.1 or so but has basically been = EOL=E2=80=99d as its been merged into Vulcan.

apple was one of the founders of = openCL, go figure=E2=80=A6

The goal of Metal is basically the same as OpenCL - use the = GPU for compute work and graphics but the dev doesn=E2=80=99t have to = use hardware specific code. its an API to seperate app level code from = having from the hardware.

one of the reasons ( as far as I can tell ) that nV drivers = have been stuck on 387.x.y.z.A is that going a few full number vers = higher, nV=E2=80=99s drivers suppport OpenCL2.0 which is not something = apple would like. Hence in part the same driver level stays put because = apple doesn=E2=80=99t want OCL2 on Mac OS and probably has to do work to = make that happen and has to supply a driver signing cert and won=E2=80=99t= . they want everyone to use Metal2 instead.

while CUDA is cross platform, current = on all, apple doesn=E2=80=99t like it. AMD had announced CUDA support of = their own flavor but no idea where that has gone, or not. That of course = leaves out Intel GPU=E2=80=99s on chip, as well as the ARM GPU=E2=80=99s = coming in 2020. At this point apple moving OS X to ARM for at least = laptops seems certain and again, using Metal for apple devices gives = devs a universal target=E2=80=A6 except, well, apple could instead = suppport Vulcan but won=E2=80=99t because they don=E2=80=99t control = it.

nV drivers = for 10.14 are now supposed to be in development between apple and nV for = a couple months. we=E2=80=99ll see how it goes.

S

On Feb = 22, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Brian Higgins <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Is CUDA even supported on Mac hardware going forward? Apple = seems to have an institutional hatred for Nvidia, = unfortunately.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jim = Curtis <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ve been working on a maxed out 2012 = MacPro5,1, but have found significant gains in Pr by upgrading my GPU to = the biggest and baddest, the Titan X.  Most of my work is in Pr, = and a CUDA GPU makes a big difference.

I wonder how much, if anything is = gained by rendering DL-ed Ae Comps in Pr, but my guess is =E2=80=9Cnot = much, if any.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s due to the fact that Adobe vaunts = CUDA for rendering CUDA accelerated effects and H.264 export, and not = everything.

On = my wish list is that Adobe and all third-party vendors would make their = effects CUDA hardware accelerated.  And, any other GPU vendor, = FTM.  I=E2=80=99ve read that Open CL and Metal are still works in = progress in OSX.  True?


On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:06 AM, Adam Mercado = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Thanks Warren. That what I = needed to hear. 

Teddy, you brought up hardware. Just saying. Anyway, what I = meant was that gains in hardware have stalled in performance comparing = the last 5 years to the five years previous to that. Negligible was not = the right word, incremental maybe more accurate. You need to throw a lot = more money at hardware to get the increases in performance you got a few = years ago. I stand to be corrected on that, it=E2=80=99s just an opinion = I=E2=80=99ve formed from reading the likes of ArsTechnica, Wired, = AEList, etc etc.

AM

On Feb 22, = 2019, at 8:22 AM, Warren Heaton <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

For = what it=E2=80=99s worth, as of CC2017 or CC2018 the AE Library is = included in Premiere Pro (I forget when it was implemented).  I = thinks it=E2=80=99s made a noticeable difference working with AE Comps = directly in Premiere Pro.  

I don=E2=80=99t remember if this has been mentioned or not = yet: if upgrading from CC2014, be sure to disable =E2=80=9CRemove old = versions=E2=80=9D when installing CC2018 or CC2019.



-Warren












Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:19 AM, Teddy = Gage <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Adam, clearly I will not get you = to change your ways, but as you said, paying $50 / month for 5 year old = software is nuts. Nothing says you have to abandon 2014, but I literally = could not imagine working in it completely, with all the advancements = and improvements and bug fixes since then. I can't even list them there = are so many. I know it's trendy to hate on AE development since 2014 but = many many features that have come down the pipe have increased my = productivity 10x. GPU accelerated effects and master properties alone = are indispensable to my workflow now. Versioning lower thirds now takes = minutes vs. hours. DL is much more stable than it used to be, and much = faster. But I guess if you're also on 5+ year old hardware, maybe you = may not notice much difference.

Anyway - 

I still don't use DL quite as intended = - I use it to create the initial comp to the appropriate length in AE, = and bring in assets. Then I disable the DL in premiere, render out from = AE and bring the clip back into Premiere. Rendering through Premiere = with the AE engine is incredibly slow, even with the "hack" of closing = AE. If the clip is pre-rendered you're gonna save a ton of time. And = native rendering in AE is much faster than through any external app (AME = or pp). 

On Wed, Feb = 20, 2019 at 10:33 PM Adam Mercado <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
No you = had it right the first time. I mistyped. I still didn=E2=80=99t realize = it was the case



Adam = Mercado
Owner & = Creative Idiot
Influxx Media = Production 
714.928.9896

Moving Images. = For Business

On Feb 20, = 2019, at 6:25 PM, George Loch <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

Sorry, I meant that PPro renders slower with AE = open.

-gl

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 6:55 PM Adam = Mercado <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
Thanks = George. In what ways is DL better integrated? It=E2=80=99s really only = speed I=E2=80=99m bothered by, although some blending mode stuff could = carry over from AE to PP I suppose. 

I did not know about PP rendering = faster with AE open. I always margined it might be the opposite for some = reason. Go figure. I=E2=80=99ll try and compare. 

Also, is AME any faster = for PP renders than just a basic Export? I can=E2=80=99t remember if I = read that AME was multi threaded and at what version that happened

Adam = Mercado



On = Feb 20, 2019, at 5:35 PM, George Loch <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

The integration is better on later versions = (Although I have recently discovered a bug in 2018). 

As to rendering speed, = Premiere will render much faster if AE is closed. Not sure if you have = discovered that quick win :)

-gl

On Wed, Feb = 20, 2019 at 1:01 PM Adam Mercado <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
I=E2=80=99m sure this topic has been = addressed once or twice before, but in light of the great Optimized = System post that was up recently I wondered if there were any best = practices for getting the most out of DL

I=E2=80=99m still using CC2014 for PP and AE - not tried the most recent = versions, but hated all the prior versions so I=E2=80=99ve stuck to what = I like and what works (I=E2=80=99m just stoked to be paying monthly for = 5 year old software, but that=E2=80=99s another rant). And my experience = in CC14 with DL is horrible. What takes 10 mins in AE to render, takes = an hour to Preview in PP.

So two things, is DL one of the features that got improved with later = editions? I=E2=80=99ll trade off the other negatives to get better DL = performance if it comes down to that. Also, are there system or settings = optimization=E2=80=99s that can be done to improve DL performance.

Thanks

Adam Mercado
Owner & Creative Idiot
Influxx Media Production
714.928.9896

Moving Images. For Business

+---End of message---+
To unsubscribe send any message to <ae-list-off@media-motion.tv>


--
_____________________________
Teddy Gage
President
Shotgun = Inc.
360 VR | MOGRAPH | = VFX
SHOTGUNPOST.COM
BKLYN NY 11215

=
=


--
brian higgins | = creative director
Flavor
ny =E2=80=A2 chicago =E2=80=A2 la =E2=80=A2 detroit =E2=80=A2 = tokyo
312.706.5500
brian.higgins@flavor.tv


= --Apple-Mail=_1555C285-F10E-4E1F-B717-BCF8ED83A125--