From: "Dennis Wilkins" Received: from se6b-iad1.servconfig.com ([23.235.198.64] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7476645 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 08:31:30 +0100 Received: from biz127.inmotionhosting.com ([74.124.215.139]) by se6-iad1.servconfig.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ieZzP-0012tF-UW for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 02:31:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=reelsolutions.com; s=default; h=Message-Id:In-Reply-To:To:References:Date: Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7WZ7O0SZqZjKdU0sufCbQvjuDMcDHH8VGOrepSjR2V4=; b=kfRt6MreS09zUZitzRgePzmxd 7PICDGF/iU9Ze/45LoGOSO+L6MGR/UOZ5c7WUo10VV684h2VbVYytxogyYaauU98c2HapVtG3dIIA W6r1vHxyfe2Y2CbWX1H0eQh4wmMLrcU2Xbyp9+cL/BjCa0IBShlTX7VKRJSs7yKWgaKCQ=; Received: from [73.162.54.113] (port=53521 helo=[192.168.1.92]) by biz127.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ieZzG-00DxrD-K0 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 23:31:23 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_06CB9C51-BBEB-4AF6-8860-E2D858FC81D6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new MacPro tomorrow. Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 23:31:13 -0800 References: To: After Effects Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <779911E2-D6AB-48F5-969E-752A367A2646@reelsolutions.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Authenticated-Sender: biz127.inmotionhosting.com: dennis@reelsolutions.com X-Originating-IP: 74.124.215.139 X-SpamExperts-Domain: biz127.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 74.124.215.139 Authentication-Results: servconfig.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=74.124.215.139@biz127.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.41) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0fi3oD8HEy9ysrsB6Ile+oipSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVL1nd3RQWunxi ymennIgVgUTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDSZ07zKgM8PW4UTfIro0akdlc 87bL9Te2rDLk4pXZSNhl3JDmmfLa+g5PdurTqIH14pWx7WxWFZpsjT/483ewgnBpqZvo8S/Elh6D JFe855BQnNIVIGV7K3onN9v18vhsyyWTtSpU+pNaNZPOHqxTQwzny1soUtF/gJP2ILEwXs8E9vcy 4no6atho6jYqWxcqFY8k1WG3OMoOaVGt2zSTlBuhe3E/04XQR82zlOo2rZj5gCxcsSLD/tx2p73X NFeQJFaKhkSDy4cAI5e/1P/crAzcLiPibp7eiMkmZ+TDXbkvTRxdebmKLQZvPPRB7w6pA1aO0ASg ODHLSquIn2D3FxUS9itywBHw11Tnbe8A27oomkb88FZtlL215ubG5xECaDDDId9M9KLt1JmuiAga qJuhsj9t9+IR2zULO4aSf08VibkyMxsuFG9+hHfpakcKugBtfK1Us0vBD0buxpxtOHMcN6qoXPje nLhIOF1oeRYZEpJTBkYQkMCXk16fakSD6VyUQBAqm/exbm87aO0V2f80TPoFJJSbn/RmJbswddTs AuNGMm7TfApblqrojruBwQ5Xf/h0SZfzaI4KSQ5mEavYApq9oQist4VsW1e5FoPTPpuFqUUQz+mM 8JAD4ECW1+oX3EKP/fx4Zn5H1ztIWpyLwkuKI51yRR7AImuZBFycTD53rSwSTIedTYkUaByA1vf1 B/13R3iwXwzq9CiEKpoiu8eNlY3cwoWTHujvw4nnhJJNwP9kQjhdf7CvqonWh+GS2ssjSvcdnqH1 XLoF4409uco375oyD9FrxhLeMpY9j4SSU9TZQ0zbXDGHEKc5PMx7VhMNP/C3NwCfeAq0a1X+b5ui JfvXNX+fh+j/FIprCNSbi5MsZfrPbfNSjbczWJIeDNx9EPi2+lb/gsYGTGLrK6cVPAVRYvvCaJzG JjqvDTpHpvGayLDsUiaPTIJ7lqd9yir0ixHqX85lv1UwQw== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se1-lax1.servconfig.com --Apple-Mail=_06CB9C51-BBEB-4AF6-8860-E2D858FC81D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My opinion is that there is no =E2=80=9Cbest=E2=80=99 computer (or = platform) for everyone in this industry - use cases and users vary quite = a bit. As far as the new Mac Pro goes, I=E2=80=99m withholding judgment until I = see how Redshift, Octane and Unity work in their Metal incarnations on = the new machines. It has 4 double-wide full-length PCI slots so in = theory 4 off the shelf GPUs will fit (if anyone can convince Nvidia to = change their mind on discontinuing development on the Mac I have money = to spend)=E2=80=A6These apps/renderers are what drove me to build two = high-end PC=E2=80=99s in the past 2-3 years. I only use the PC=E2=80=99s = for 3D because Windows doesn=E2=80=99t do what I want or need it to and = I find it inferior in general for doing motion graphics projects. The reason for that are the following workflow issues using Windows (and = I=E2=80=99d love to hear solutions for these if people have them): =E2=80=A2 Quick Look replacement that can view all of the common = production graphics files the Mac can in the finder/explorer window = (including EXR=E2=80=99s). I=E2=80=99ve tried all the apps I can find = and wasted a lot of man-hours looking for anything even close. It = doesn=E2=80=99t exist as far as I can tell. I can search, preview, open = and playback source files far quicker on the Mac than I can on Windows = and I do that constantly. (I=E2=80=99ve tried SEER which kind of works = except it=E2=80=99s slow and doesn=E2=80=99t support EXR=E2=80=99s - so = it actually doesn=E2=80=99t work=E2=80=A6) =E2=80=A2 ProRes - I can count on one hand the projects I=E2=80=99ve = delivered in the past 5 years that didn=E2=80=99t require ProRes for at = least one of the deliverables. (This is overwhelmingly my clients = decision for final deliverables including two of the top PC = manufacturers). IMHO it=E2=80=99s the best video codec available for = final delivery, archiving, playback, = etc...(Broadcast/Commercial/Corporate). I know there are ways of viewing = and creating ProRes files on the PC but most of them have had issues and = trying to quickly QC a final deliverable isn=E2=80=99t nearly as easy as = on a Mac. =E2=80=A2 QuickTime - I can=E2=80=99t believe I=E2=80=99m calling out = QuickTime X as a pro for Mac because other than performance in playing = back H264=E2=80=99s it=E2=80=99s a real step backwards from QuickTime 7 = but I don=E2=80=99t know of any lightweight, quick to open video player = for the PC that allows easy previewing of video files that can step = through a video frame by frame (and playback ProRes files). On Windows = I=E2=80=99m currently using Assimilate SCRATCH Play Premium for video = files and EXR=E2=80=99s but it looks like they=E2=80=99ve discontinued = it and it=E2=80=99s really more than I want or need to just preview = files anyway. =E2=80=A2 One company to deal with: If I have an issue with a Mac, I = call Apple; they deal with it - no finger pointing, no what drivers are = you using? etc. nightmare. I had a power supply go out in a Mac Pro that = was 3-4 years outside of warranty in 2008-2010. My guess is they = didn=E2=80=99t have the power supply in stock any longer so they offered = to give me a brand new base level Mac Pro in exchange; I asked if I = could pay the difference and get a high end one and they happily = obliged. I=E2=80=99ll subtract about 4K off of any perceived Apple tax = right there. With the machines I build, it=E2=80=99s totally up to me to = figure out any issues which sucks and takes me away from what I get paid = pretty well to do. (I=E2=80=99ve owned Dells and it doesn=E2=80=99t get = much easier in that case - there=E2=80=99s still the = Hardware/Software/Driver dance you may have to deal with). I don=E2=80=99t= particularly enjoy building or fixing PC=E2=80=99s - I have other = hobbies=E2=80=A6=20 There=E2=80=99s more that I could point out but these are the ones I = constantly bump up against using Windows PC's. I like Gary=E2=80=99s analogy of European VS domestic or Japanese cars = and feel that it=E2=80=99s quite relevant (even though I currently drive = a Ford truck)... Lastly, in this thread I see a few comments about the Mac Pro = =E2=80=9Ctrash-can=E2=80=9D being unreliable but mine has not had a = single issue; I ordered it the first day they were available and it=E2=80=99= s been running nearly 24/7 since early 2014 (often running C4D renders = with 24 threads pegged for days at a time)=E2=80=A6 Dennis Wilkins > On Dec 9, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: >=20 > > Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a =E2=80=9Cwhite = box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top spec to begin = with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the cost = differential > =20 > I don=E2=80=99t think this math holds up based on my experience with = selling used Macs and high end used DIY built boxes used for ISR. Mac = asking prices for used are higher but actual sold prices are not that = high. And I routinely get 7+ years out of DIY PC boxes which is exactly = what I got out of my Mac Mini. These components inside are not wildly = different here in MTF and Apple thermals are more problematic on more = recent machines. >=20 > Yes, a crappy PC box or notebook that was crappy to begin with is = going to be worth zilch in 3 years. But I sold 2012 and 2013 render = boxes that cost around $2K to build for about $600 to $700. I got a $450 = for my late 2012 Mac Mini that was $900 (with keyboard and mouse) + 16GB = of RAM and $1TB SSD (2013 prices on those parts), just shy of $1500. =20 > =20 > My 2018 MacBook Pro seems to be holding about same depreciation as = Dell XPS machines so I don=E2=80=99t see the numbers to justify it from = a TCO. > =20 > Best, > =20 > stephen van vuuren > 336.202.4777 > =20 > http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ > http://www.sv2dcp.com/ > http://www.sv2studios.com/ > =20 > A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like = fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, = what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. > =E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick > =20 > From: After Effects Mail List >=20 > Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 7:52 PM > To: After Effects Mail List > > Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new MacPro tomorrow. > =20 > The important thing to consider, cost-wise, is the TCO - Total Cost of = Ownership. Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a = =E2=80=9Cwhite box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top = spec to begin with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the = cost differential. For example, I expect to get 60% of retail for a 2yo = machine still under AppleCare. But even if I keep it - I=E2=80=99m in = the process of retiring a 2012 MBP that=E2=80=99s still quite usable, = mainly because the projects I=E2=80=99m doing now require the 64GB of = RAM and top GPU in my new 16=E2=80=9D MBP. That=E2=80=99s a 7yo machine, = still turning out shots. I don=E2=80=99t think it owes me anything. > =20 > I=E2=80=99m looking on eBay at prices for used Dell and HP laptops. = Pretty sad, though I guess one could make the point that one gets to = keep the price difference right away rather than getting it back on = resale. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Tim Sassoon > SFD > Venice, CA > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Dec 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Gary Reisman > wrote: > =20 > Some people to have no problems buying new $40k+ European cars that = drop $10k in value in a few years, just to drive to and from work most = of the time a few hours out of the week, when they could easily spend = half on a decent domestic or Japanese import - some of which perform = nearly the same. --Apple-Mail=_06CB9C51-BBEB-4AF6-8860-E2D858FC81D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 My = opinion is that there is no =E2=80=9Cbest=E2=80=99 computer (or = platform) for everyone in this industry - use cases and users vary quite = a bit.

As far as the new Mac Pro goes, = I=E2=80=99m withholding judgment until I see how Redshift, Octane and = Unity work in their Metal incarnations on the new machines. It has = 4 double-wide full-length PCI slots so in theory 4 off the shelf GPUs = will fit (if anyone can convince Nvidia to change their mind on = discontinuing development on the Mac I have money to = spend)=E2=80=A6These apps/renderers are what drove me to build two = high-end PC=E2=80=99s in the past 2-3 years. I only use the PC=E2=80=99s = for 3D because Windows doesn=E2=80=99t do what I want or need it to and = I find it inferior in general for doing motion graphics = projects.

The reason = for that are the following workflow issues using Windows (and I=E2=80=99d = love to hear solutions for these if people have them):

=E2=80=A2 Quick Look replacement that can = view all of the common production graphics files the Mac can in the = finder/explorer window (including EXR=E2=80=99s). I=E2=80=99ve tried all = the apps I can find and wasted a lot of man-hours looking for = anything even close. It doesn=E2=80=99t exist as far as I can tell. I = can search, preview, open and playback source files far quicker on = the Mac than I can on Windows and I do that constantly. (I=E2=80=99ve = tried SEER which kind of works except it=E2=80=99s slow and doesn=E2=80=99= t support EXR=E2=80=99s - so it actually doesn=E2=80=99t = work=E2=80=A6)

=E2=80=A2= ProRes - I can count on one hand the projects I=E2=80=99ve delivered in = the past 5 years that didn=E2=80=99t require ProRes for at least one of = the deliverables. (This is overwhelmingly my clients decision for = final deliverables including two of the top PC manufacturers). IMHO = it=E2=80=99s the best video codec available for final delivery, = archiving, playback, etc...(Broadcast/Commercial/Corporate). I know = there are ways of viewing and creating ProRes files on the PC but most = of them have had issues and trying to quickly QC a = final deliverable isn=E2=80=99t nearly as easy as on a Mac.

=E2=80=A2 QuickTime - I = can=E2=80=99t believe I=E2=80=99m calling out QuickTime X as a pro for = Mac because other than performance in playing back H264=E2=80=99s it=E2=80= =99s a real step backwards from QuickTime 7 but I don=E2=80=99t = know of any lightweight, quick to open video player for the PC that = allows easy previewing of video files that can step through a = video frame by frame (and playback ProRes files). On Windows I=E2=80=99= m currently using Assimilate SCRATCH Play Premium for video files and = EXR=E2=80=99s but it looks like they=E2=80=99ve discontinued it = and it=E2=80=99s really more than I want or need to just preview = files anyway.

=E2=80=A2 One company = to deal with: If I have an issue with a Mac, I call Apple; they deal = with it - no finger pointing, no what drivers are you using? etc. = nightmare. I had a power supply go out in a Mac Pro that was 3-4 = years outside of warranty in 2008-2010. My guess is they didn=E2=80=99t = have the power supply in stock any longer so they offered to give = me a brand new base level Mac Pro in exchange; I asked if I could pay = the difference and get a high end one and they happily obliged. I=E2=80=99= ll subtract about 4K off of any perceived Apple tax right there. = With the machines I build, it=E2=80=99s totally up to me to figure out = any issues which sucks and takes me away from what I get paid = pretty well to do. (I=E2=80=99ve owned Dells and it doesn=E2=80=99t get = much easier in that case - there=E2=80=99s still the = Hardware/Software/Driver dance you may have to deal with). = I don=E2=80=99t particularly enjoy building or fixing PC=E2=80=99s = - I have other hobbies=E2=80=A6 

There=E2=80=99s more that I could point out but these are the = ones I constantly bump up against using Windows PC's.

I like Gary=E2=80=99s analogy of European VS domestic or = Japanese cars and feel that it=E2=80=99s quite relevant (even though I = currently drive a Ford truck)...

Lastly, in this thread I see a few comments about the Mac Pro = =E2=80=9Ctrash-can=E2=80=9D being unreliable but mine has not had a = single issue; I ordered it the first day they were available and it=E2=80=99= s been running nearly 24/7 since early 2014 (often running C4D = renders with 24 threads pegged for days at a time)=E2=80=A6


Dennis = Wilkins




On Dec = 9, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:

> = Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a =E2=80=9Cwhite = box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top spec to begin = with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the cost = differential
 
I don=E2=80=99t think this math holds up based on my = experience with selling used Macs and high end used DIY built boxes used = for ISR. Mac asking prices for used are higher but actual sold prices = are not that high. And I routinely get 7+ years out of DIY PC boxes = which is exactly what I got out of my Mac Mini. These components inside = are not wildly different here in MTF and Apple thermals are more = problematic on more recent machines.

Yes, a crappy PC box or = notebook that was crappy to begin with is going to be worth zilch in 3 = years. But I sold 2012 and 2013 render boxes that cost around $2K to = build for about $600 to $700. I got a $450 for my late 2012 Mac Mini = that was $900 (with keyboard and mouse) + 16GB of RAM and $1TB SSD (2013 = prices on those parts), just shy of $1500.  
 
My 2018 = MacBook Pro seems to be holding about same depreciation as Dell XPS = machines so I don=E2=80=99t see the numbers to justify it from a = TCO.
 
Best,
 
stephen = van vuuren
336.202.4777
 
http://www.insaturnsrings.com/
http://www.sv2dcp.com/
http://www.sv2studios.com/
 
A film is =E2=80=93 or = should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like fiction. It should be a = progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what=E2=80=99s behind the = emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.
=E2=80=93Stanley = Kubrick
 
From: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 = 7:52 PM
To: After Effects Mail List = <AE-List@media-motion.tv>Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new = MacPro tomorrow.
 
The important thing to = consider, cost-wise, is the TCO - Total Cost of Ownership. Apple = computers may have a higher initial cost than a =E2=80=9Cwhite box=E2=80=9D= machine, but especially if they were top spec to begin with, their = resale value usually makes up and more for the cost differential. For = example, I expect to get 60% of retail for a 2yo machine still under = AppleCare. But even if I keep it - I=E2=80=99m in the process of = retiring a 2012 MBP that=E2=80=99s still quite usable, mainly because = the projects I=E2=80=99m doing now require the 64GB of RAM and top GPU = in my new 16=E2=80=9D MBP. That=E2=80=99s a 7yo machine, still turning = out shots. I don=E2=80=99t think it owes me anything.
 
I=E2=80=99m looking on eBay at prices = for used Dell and HP laptops. Pretty sad, though I guess one could make = the point that one gets to keep the price difference right away rather = than getting it back on resale.
 
 
 
Tim Sassoon
SFD
Venice, CA
 
 


On Dec 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Gary Reisman <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:
 
Some people to have no = problems buying new $40k+ European cars that drop $10k in value in a few = years,  just to drive to and from work most of the time a few hours = out of the week,  when they could easily spend half on a decent = domestic or Japanese import - some of which perform nearly the = same.
=
= --Apple-Mail=_06CB9C51-BBEB-4AF6-8860-E2D858FC81D6--