From: "Jim Tierney" Received: from s483.sureserver.com ([192.252.146.33] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7476672 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 09:56:49 +0100 Received: (qmail 28159 invoked by uid 1003); 10 Dec 2019 08:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DESKTOP8R47VKS) (jim@digitalanarchy.com@67.188.157.243) by s483.sureserver.com with ESMTPA; 10 Dec 2019 08:56:46 -0000 To: "'After Effects Mail List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [AE] We can order a new MacPro tomorrow. Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 00:56:45 -0800 Message-ID: <098f01d5af37$c02acc30$40806490$@digitalanarchy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0990_01D5AEF4.B208EBC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIWIFLr2ZkbiYEzeyGq3o4ShdfWrqcyLCUA Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0990_01D5AEF4.B208EBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>(if anyone can convince Nvidia to change their mind on discontinuing = development on the Mac I have money to spend) =20 Nvidia would develop on Mac if Apple didn=E2=80=99t block their = software. Part of the Apple Tax=E2=80=A6 Apple decides what you get to = use. Usually not a big deal, but really sucks in this case. =20 =20 Cheers, Jim ------------------- Jim Tierney President Digital Anarchy Transcriptive.com =20 =20 =20 From: After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv]=20 Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 11:31 PM To: After Effects Mail List Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new MacPro tomorrow. =20 My opinion is that there is no =E2=80=9Cbest=E2=80=99 computer (or = platform) for everyone in this industry - use cases and users vary quite = a bit. As far as the new Mac Pro goes, I=E2=80=99m withholding judgment until I = see how Redshift, Octane and Unity work in their Metal incarnations on = the new machines. It has 4 double-wide full-length PCI slots so in = theory 4 off the shelf GPUs will fit (if anyone can convince Nvidia to = change their mind on discontinuing development on the Mac I have money = to spend)=E2=80=A6These apps/renderers are what drove me to build two = high-end PC=E2=80=99s in the past 2-3 years. I only use the PC=E2=80=99s = for 3D because Windows doesn=E2=80=99t do what I want or need it to and = I find it inferior in general for doing motion graphics projects. =20 The reason for that are the following workflow issues using Windows (and = I=E2=80=99d love to hear solutions for these if people have them): =E2=80=A2 Quick Look replacement that can view all of the common = production graphics files the Mac can in the finder/explorer window = (including EXR=E2=80=99s). I=E2=80=99ve tried all the apps I can find = and wasted a lot of man-hours looking for anything even close. It = doesn=E2=80=99t exist as far as I can tell. I can search, preview, open = and playback source files far quicker on the Mac than I can on Windows = and I do that constantly. (I=E2=80=99ve tried SEER which kind of works = except it=E2=80=99s slow and doesn=E2=80=99t support EXR=E2=80=99s - so = it actually doesn=E2=80=99t work=E2=80=A6) =20 =E2=80=A2 ProRes - I can count on one hand the projects I=E2=80=99ve = delivered in the past 5 years that didn=E2=80=99t require ProRes for at = least one of the deliverables. (This is overwhelmingly my clients = decision for final deliverables including two of the top PC = manufacturers). IMHO it=E2=80=99s the best video codec available for = final delivery, archiving, playback, = etc...(Broadcast/Commercial/Corporate). I know there are ways of viewing = and creating ProRes files on the PC but most of them have had issues and = trying to quickly QC a final deliverable isn=E2=80=99t nearly as easy as = on a Mac. =20 =E2=80=A2 QuickTime - I can=E2=80=99t believe I=E2=80=99m calling out = QuickTime X as a pro for Mac because other than performance in playing = back H264=E2=80=99s it=E2=80=99s a real step backwards from QuickTime 7 = but I don=E2=80=99t know of any lightweight, quick to open video player = for the PC that allows easy previewing of video files that can step = through a video frame by frame (and playback ProRes files). On Windows = I=E2=80=99m currently using Assimilate SCRATCH Play Premium for video = files and EXR=E2=80=99s but it looks like they=E2=80=99ve discontinued = it and it=E2=80=99s really more than I want or need to just preview = files anyway. =20 =E2=80=A2 One company to deal with: If I have an issue with a Mac, I = call Apple; they deal with it - no finger pointing, no what drivers are = you using? etc. nightmare. I had a power supply go out in a Mac Pro that = was 3-4 years outside of warranty in 2008-2010. My guess is they = didn=E2=80=99t have the power supply in stock any longer so they offered = to give me a brand new base level Mac Pro in exchange; I asked if I = could pay the difference and get a high end one and they happily = obliged. I=E2=80=99ll subtract about 4K off of any perceived Apple tax = right there. With the machines I build, it=E2=80=99s totally up to me to = figure out any issues which sucks and takes me away from what I get paid = pretty well to do. (I=E2=80=99ve owned Dells and it doesn=E2=80=99t get = much easier in that case - there=E2=80=99s still the = Hardware/Software/Driver dance you may have to deal with). I = don=E2=80=99t particularly enjoy building or fixing PC=E2=80=99s - I = have other hobbies=E2=80=A6=20 There=E2=80=99s more that I could point out but these are the ones I = constantly bump up against using Windows PC's. I like Gary=E2=80=99s analogy of European VS domestic or Japanese cars = and feel that it=E2=80=99s quite relevant (even though I currently drive = a Ford truck)... Lastly, in this thread I see a few comments about the Mac Pro = =E2=80=9Ctrash-can=E2=80=9D being unreliable but mine has not had a = single issue; I ordered it the first day they were available and = it=E2=80=99s been running nearly 24/7 since early 2014 (often running = C4D renders with 24 threads pegged for days at a time)=E2=80=A6 =20 =20 Dennis Wilkins =20 =20 =20 On Dec 9, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Stephen van Vuuren = wrote: =20 > Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a =E2=80=9Cwhite = box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top spec to begin = with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the cost = differential =20 I don=E2=80=99t think this math holds up based on my experience with = selling used Macs and high end used DIY built boxes used for ISR. Mac = asking prices for used are higher but actual sold prices are not that = high. And I routinely get 7+ years out of DIY PC boxes which is exactly = what I got out of my Mac Mini. These components inside are not wildly = different here in MTF and Apple thermals are more problematic on more = recent machines. Yes, a crappy PC box or notebook that was crappy to begin with is going = to be worth zilch in 3 years. But I sold 2012 and 2013 render boxes that = cost around $2K to build for about $600 to $700. I got a $450 for my = late 2012 Mac Mini that was $900 (with keyboard and mouse) + 16GB of RAM = and $1TB SSD (2013 prices on those parts), just shy of $1500. =20 =20 My 2018 MacBook Pro seems to be holding about same depreciation as Dell = XPS machines so I don=E2=80=99t see the numbers to justify it from a = TCO. =20 Best, =20 stephen van vuuren 336.202.4777 =20 http://www.insaturnsrings.com/ http://www.sv2dcp.com/ http://www.sv2studios.com/ =20 A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like = fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, = what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later. =E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick =20 From: After Effects Mail List < = AE-List@media-motion.tv>=20 Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 7:52 PM To: After Effects Mail List < = AE-List@media-motion.tv> Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new MacPro tomorrow. =20 The important thing to consider, cost-wise, is the TCO - Total Cost of = Ownership. Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a = =E2=80=9Cwhite box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top = spec to begin with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the = cost differential. For example, I expect to get 60% of retail for a 2yo = machine still under AppleCare. But even if I keep it - I=E2=80=99m in = the process of retiring a 2012 MBP that=E2=80=99s still quite usable, = mainly because the projects I=E2=80=99m doing now require the 64GB of = RAM and top GPU in my new 16=E2=80=9D MBP. That=E2=80=99s a 7yo machine, = still turning out shots. I don=E2=80=99t think it owes me anything. =20 I=E2=80=99m looking on eBay at prices for used Dell and HP laptops. = Pretty sad, though I guess one could make the point that one gets to = keep the price difference right away rather than getting it back on = resale. =20 =20 =20 Tim Sassoon SFD Venice, CA =20 =20 On Dec 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Gary Reisman < = AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote: =20 Some people to have no problems buying new $40k+ European cars that drop = $10k in value in a few years, just to drive to and from work most of = the time a few hours out of the week, when they could easily spend half = on a decent domestic or Japanese import - some of which perform nearly = the same. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0990_01D5AEF4.B208EBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>(if anyone can convince Nvidia to change their mind on = discontinuing development on the Mac I have money to spend)

 

Nvidia would develop on Mac if Apple didn=E2=80=99t block their = software. Part of the Apple Tax=E2=80=A6 Apple decides what you get to = use. Usually not a big deal, but really sucks in this = case.

 

 

Cheers,

Jim

-------------------

Jim Tierney

President

Digital Anarchy

Transcriptive.com

 

 

 

From:= = After Effects Mail List [mailto:AE-List@media-motion.tv] =
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 11:31 PM
To: After = Effects Mail List
Subject: Re: [AE] We can order a new MacPro = tomorrow.

 

My opinion = is that there is no =E2=80=9Cbest=E2=80=99 computer (or platform) for = everyone in this industry - use cases and users vary quite a = bit.

As far as the new Mac Pro goes, I=E2=80=99m withholding = judgment until I see how Redshift, Octane and Unity work in their Metal = incarnations on the new machines. It has 4 double-wide full-length = PCI slots so in theory 4 off the shelf GPUs will fit (if anyone can = convince Nvidia to change their mind on discontinuing development on the = Mac I have money to spend)=E2=80=A6These apps/renderers are what = drove me to build two high-end PC=E2=80=99s in the past 2-3 years. I = only use the PC=E2=80=99s for 3D because Windows doesn=E2=80=99t do what = I want or need it to and I find it inferior in general for doing = motion graphics projects.

 

The reason for that are the following = workflow issues using Windows (and I=E2=80=99d love to hear solutions = for these if people have them):

=E2=80=A2 Quick Look replacement that can view all of = the common production graphics files the Mac can in the finder/explorer = window (including EXR=E2=80=99s). I=E2=80=99ve tried all the apps I = can find and wasted a lot of man-hours looking for anything even close. = It doesn=E2=80=99t exist as far as I can tell. I can search, preview, = open and playback source files far quicker on the Mac than I can on = Windows and I do that constantly. (I=E2=80=99ve tried SEER which kind of = works except it=E2=80=99s slow and doesn=E2=80=99t support EXR=E2=80=99s = - so it actually doesn=E2=80=99t = work=E2=80=A6)

 

=E2=80=A2 ProRes - I can count on one hand the = projects I=E2=80=99ve delivered in the past 5 years that didn=E2=80=99t = require ProRes for at least one of the deliverables. (This is = overwhelmingly my clients decision for final deliverables including = two of the top PC manufacturers). IMHO it=E2=80=99s the best video codec = available for final delivery, archiving, playback, = etc...(Broadcast/Commercial/Corporate). I know there are ways of viewing = and creating ProRes files on the PC but most of them have had issues and = trying to quickly QC a final deliverable isn=E2=80=99t nearly as = easy as on a Mac.

 

=E2=80=A2 QuickTime - I can=E2=80=99t believe = I=E2=80=99m calling out QuickTime X as a pro for Mac because other than = performance in playing back H264=E2=80=99s it=E2=80=99s a real step = backwards from QuickTime 7 but I don=E2=80=99t know of any = lightweight, quick to open video player for the PC that allows easy = previewing of video files that can step through a video frame by = frame (and playback ProRes files). On Windows I=E2=80=99m currently = using Assimilate SCRATCH Play Premium for video files and EXR=E2=80=99s = but it looks like they=E2=80=99ve discontinued it and it=E2=80=99s = really more than I want or need to just preview files = anyway.

 

=E2=80=A2 One company to deal with: If I have an issue = with a Mac, I call Apple; they deal with it - no finger pointing, no = what drivers are you using? etc. nightmare. I had a power supply go = out in a Mac Pro that was 3-4 years outside of warranty in 2008-2010. My = guess is they didn=E2=80=99t have the power supply in stock any longer = so they offered to give me a brand new base level Mac Pro in = exchange; I asked if I could pay the difference and get a high end one = and they happily obliged. I=E2=80=99ll subtract about 4K off of any = perceived Apple tax right there. With the machines I build, it=E2=80=99s = totally up to me to figure out any issues which sucks and takes me away = from what I get paid pretty well to do. (I=E2=80=99ve owned Dells = and it doesn=E2=80=99t get much easier in that case - there=E2=80=99s = still the Hardware/Software/Driver dance you may have to deal with). = I don=E2=80=99t particularly enjoy building or fixing PC=E2=80=99s = - I have other hobbies=E2=80=A6 

There=E2=80=99s more that I = could point out but these are the ones I constantly bump up against = using Windows PC's.


I like = Gary=E2=80=99s analogy of European VS domestic or Japanese cars and feel = that it=E2=80=99s quite relevant (even though I currently drive a Ford = truck)...


Lastly, in = this thread I see a few comments about the Mac Pro = =E2=80=9Ctrash-can=E2=80=9D being unreliable but mine has not had a = single issue; I ordered it the first day they were available and = it=E2=80=99s been running nearly 24/7 since early 2014 (often = running C4D renders with 24 threads pegged for days at a = time)=E2=80=A6

 

 

Dennis = Wilkins

 

 

 



On = Dec 9, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Stephen van Vuuren <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

 

> Apple = computers may have a higher initial cost than a =E2=80=9Cwhite = box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top spec to begin = with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the cost = differential

 =

I = don=E2=80=99t think this math holds up based on my experience with = selling used Macs and high end used DIY built boxes used for ISR. Mac = asking prices for used are higher but actual sold prices are not that = high. And I routinely get 7+ years out of DIY PC boxes which is exactly = what I got out of my Mac Mini. These components inside are not wildly = different here in MTF and Apple thermals are more problematic on more = recent machines.


Yes, a = crappy PC box or notebook that was crappy to begin with is going to be = worth zilch in 3 years. But I sold 2012 and 2013 render boxes that cost = around $2K to build for about $600 to $700. I got a $450 for my late = 2012 Mac Mini that was $900 (with keyboard and mouse) + 16GB of RAM and = $1TB SSD (2013 prices on those parts), just shy of $1500. =  

 =

My 2018 = MacBook Pro seems to be holding about same depreciation as Dell XPS = machines so I don=E2=80=99t see the numbers to justify it from a = TCO.

 =

Best,=

 =

stephen van vuuren=

336.202.4777=

 =

 =

A film is =E2=80=93 or should be =E2=80=93 more like music than like = fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, = what=E2=80=99s behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes = later.=

=E2=80=93Stanley Kubrick=

 =

From: After = Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv> 
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 7:52 = PM
To: After = Effects Mail List <AE-List@media-motion.tv>
Subje= ct: Re: [AE] We can = order a new MacPro = tomorrow.

 =

The = important thing to consider, cost-wise, is the TCO - Total Cost of = Ownership. Apple computers may have a higher initial cost than a = =E2=80=9Cwhite box=E2=80=9D machine, but especially if they were top = spec to begin with, their resale value usually makes up and more for the = cost differential. For example, I expect to get 60% of retail for a 2yo = machine still under AppleCare. But even if I keep it - I=E2=80=99m in = the process of retiring a 2012 MBP that=E2=80=99s still quite usable, = mainly because the projects I=E2=80=99m doing now require the 64GB of = RAM and top GPU in my new 16=E2=80=9D MBP. That=E2=80=99s a 7yo machine, = still turning out shots. I don=E2=80=99t think it owes me = anything.

 =

I=E2=80=99m= looking on eBay at prices for used Dell and HP laptops. Pretty sad, = though I guess one could make the point that one gets to keep the price = difference right away rather than getting it back on = resale.

 =

 =

 =

Tim = Sassoon

SFD

Venice, = CA

 =

 =



On Dec 9, = 2019, at 4:38 PM, Gary Reisman <AE-List@media-motion.tv> = wrote:

 =

Some = people to have no problems buying new $40k+ European cars that drop $10k = in value in a few years,  just to drive to and from work most of = the time a few hours out of the week,  when they could easily spend = half on a decent domestic or Japanese import - some of which perform = nearly the same.=

 

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