From: "Roei Tzoref" Received: from mail-io1-f49.google.com ([209.85.166.49] verified) by media-motion.tv (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.0) with ESMTPS id 7491992 for AE-List@media-motion.tv; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:48:30 +0100 Received: by mail-io1-f49.google.com with SMTP id h8so13347977iob.2 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:48:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vdFFVmu9H1EUeJeVHslGKMxaZKhcDQz+eXXvGS4phNM=; b=msYPeoWuisbux2C9+rRyrdgn38NhVzE+jaBMcLZcacQK9/1ZzjBgAfFvWYbseUSQnA BtNSIYE8hLk4ZYnawOAJHWM211vX7EOF5xselD4Kvwh38/Ak5DHxXfTlxT3j/kgW4CIK Sbtpbookt0qFhcb4j34cFgGu/TZc3dom+2YFIRyEtflN9J6zf7yhcuPy4E2UYr2W/T4A dsBSP8aP6sQQryRrToysvXrlSLuicryYkQz6TxBVM0nikOvR1wTm+GHZpGSHsTNj6O1S HmpyQ7bboQIjUNPXSKgKeQQmbjTvk/iJ3FaNm3X6aInizAPnD7VwmRUDyinwwYF/B5Zw jz4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vdFFVmu9H1EUeJeVHslGKMxaZKhcDQz+eXXvGS4phNM=; b=NGiiPfbdflGIWlmJ+NppMyPpjk9q+bg9N+IXxqVAXQyG13163iN9U1GPQ+Ixqkwbsv 5RuP85VrkHSgr2xAlLtpTTdLxevIK7LMMuHVCBotiweqXT8f6PhIu/8BNpYyWAIfWaEM F2TSvUKHAzQQa++P5ZGZs+fRD6tVTCK3VJDzygvZ4Zey73RhQD5E7HQfsl4ICzrrQYHn Ebe6nTYcsUFchTLCbtuol57e3eG707pWTA+CIxIu38om4x9AsHu6iaWn+hdB2QYqqRhI 2bb28fDq45z2yQhmPD+BEmyINJS7l0CYFT8zGP4I2Y8C1aDYr0Q3gAPs2uHEsbnW5sRL TlFA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXi3uJD7n52UqoSMnf1WjGbaAVaAgg9+6217VTus3NQ1wN4wBN8 Mn+xqea5ov/rhrt8r2zZfO6Gx1+aT6paZKdW3A/Vr5z1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqySHLRULin0sEoCikYXl+fO0S8zgIvP8rtQIXTkT8AdioTTbUsxgBQFAt9A05gfbOLDiHmmy2kvLN1wH5o6kTM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2346:: with SMTP id r6mr17485511iot.133.1578998908679; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 02:48:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:47:51 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [AE] Keying with multiple masks and zero overlapping To: After Effects Mail List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d7bc6059c175533" --0000000000000d7bc6059c175533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Ross :) On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 1:18 AM Ross Shain wrote: > Hi Roei, > Thanks for the Mocha suggestions. I saw that you posted to the Mocha user > forums and I'll make sure to log the requests. > -Ross > > > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2020 at 17:02, Roei Tzoref wrote= : > >> Thank everyone! examining a few approaches led me to these conclusions: >> >> A. linking splines in mocha and back to Ae works (until you need to >> update)... examining the mocha<->ae workflow, I wish mocha splines<->Ae >> masks workflow was better so Ross please consider these two features: >> 1. copy pasting Ae masks to mocha splines. this way, one could create th= e >> masks in Ae then import them to mocha and not just vice versa (I know mo= cha >> import script can do this, but I wish this could be native) >> 2. create Ae masks in the mocha plugin could use "update Ae masks" >> feature. so if I do an update to my splines in mocha and use "update Ae >> mattes" it would update the masks instead of creating new ones (say if t= hey >> have the same name) >> >> B. using Ae's compositing options to mask different instances of the >> keying effect in the same layer works also and would solve my accumulati= ng >> alpha issue but gets messy pretty quickly. >> >> C. converting the mattes to luma works to prevent accumulating alpha. m= y >> setup was like you said - use fill set to white, a black solid at the >> bottom of each layer using solid composite, then using the lighten blend= ing >> and it works and gives me the max of the alpha area and not combining >> alpha. placing on top of the mattes an adj with set matte set to luminan= ce >> to convert everything to alpha and then unmult effect gives me perfect >> alpha, and on top of that I place the footage with preserve underlying >> transparency and I get everything without precomposing :) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 2:06 AM Robert Kjettrup >> wrote: >> >>> oh... yes. An idea to get an Max combined matte as Brian mention, is to >>> fill all your layers RGB with white and the transparent with black (Sol= id >>> Composite set to black), use the Lighten blend mode (works like an Max >>> operator) on all these layers to get your new combined B/W matte. Add a= n >>> adjustment layer over all these layers with an Unmult effect (get the >>> Mekajiki version), then lastly add your original layer on top over all >>> these set to Preserve Underlying Transparency. >>> >>> >>> Den fre. 10. jan. 2020 kl. 00.11 skrev Ross Shain < >>> AE-List@media-motion.tv>: >>> >>>> If you happen to have Primatte Studio (in Continuum) - this is a great >>>> keyer that can handle transparencies and includes the Mocha >>>> masking internally - so you could mix and masks layers with >>>> varying opacity in the one layer. >>>> >>>> When I read this thread, I was reminded of my earlier days in >>>> node-based compositing, where it is very useful to pipe your mattes in= to >>>> math comps to combine and keep separate from your fill, then bring it = all >>>> back together. Node-based systems like NUKE or Fusion really are great= for >>>> this type of compositing. I am sure you could emulate this with AE and >>>> channel your masks/mattes separately in their own pre-comps and than >>>> combine it all together. >>>> >>>> On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 15:41, Robert Kjettrup >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If the mask work is not too complicated to quickly do again in mocha, >>>>> then you could do all the masks with linked masks there, and via the = Mocha >>>>> plugin get the animated mask paths to copy to the masks on the origin= al >>>>> layers? >>>>> >>>>> but 2 antialiased edges right next to eachother will still not get yo= u >>>>> a 100% tight edge, 50% alpha + 50% alpha does not equal 100% alpha. B= ut >>>>> then you maybe could use the Add Alpha blendmodes to get better merge= of >>>>> the masks. >>>>> This is a case where it actually would be useful to have the option t= o >>>>> render masks an un-anti-aliased (guess that is called aliased :-P) to= get >>>>> 100% pixel perfect merge of mask alphas. >>>>> >>>>> I dont know if it can be used for your case, but maybe a bit of >>>>> rethinking of the setup and you could do the keying on 1 layer but us= ing >>>>> the masks as Effect Masks instead? >>>>> >>>>> Robert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Den tor. 9. jan. 2020 kl. 10.28 skrev Roei Tzoref < >>>>> AE-List@media-motion.tv>: >>>>> >>>>>> Thx Mike, Having a stencil from them for my RGB doesn=E2=80=99t solv= e my >>>>>> Alpha channel problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Let me explain it in another way:* >>>>>> >>>>>> I am creating different mattes with semi transparent areas in the >>>>>> overlapping and that causes a problem because the create multiplicat= ion of >>>>>> the alpha information >>>>>> >>>>>> The ideal way to fix this is if the mask could be perfectly adjacent >>>>>> to one another the same way a mask on =E2=80=9Cadd=E2=80=9D and its = duplicate on =E2=80=9Csubtract=E2=80=9D >>>>>> work. Only that I have more than 2 masks. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 9:41 Mike Abbott >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you add a further copy of the original footage on top of all >>>>>>> your keyed layers and enable ' preserve underlying transparency' ? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Ross Shain* >>>> Chief Product Officer / Business Development >>>> Boris FX | borisfx.com >>>> mobile: +1.646.298.6458 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > -- > > *Ross Shain* > Chief Product Officer / Business Development > Boris FX | borisfx.com > mobile: +1.646.298.6458 > > > > > > > > > --0000000000000d7bc6059c175533 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Ross :)=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at = 1:18 AM Ross Shain <AE-List@m= edia-motion.tv> wrote:
Hi Roei,=C2=A0
Thanks for the Mocha sugg= estions. I saw that you posted to the Mocha user forums and I'll make s= ure to log the requests.=C2=A0
-Ross



On Sat, 11 Jan 2020 at 17:02, Roei Tzoref <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrot= e:
Thank everyone! examining a few approaches led me to these conclus= ions:=C2=A0

A. linking splines in mocha and back to Ae works (until = you need to update)...=C2=A0 examining the mocha<->ae workflow, I wish mocha splines<->Ae ma= sks workflow was better so Ross please consider these two features:
1. c= opy pasting Ae masks to mocha splines. this way, one could create the masks= in Ae then import them to mocha and not just vice versa (I know mocha impo= rt script can do this, but I wish this could be native)
2. create Ae mas= ks in the mocha plugin could use "update Ae masks" feature. so if= I do an update to my splines in mocha and use "update Ae mattes"= it would update the masks instead of creating new ones (say if they have t= he same name)=C2=A0=C2=A0

B. using Ae's compositing options to m= ask different instances of the keying effect in the same layer works also a= nd would solve my accumulating alpha issue but gets messy pretty=C2=A0quick= ly.

C. converting the mattes to luma works to prevent accumulating a= lpha.=C2=A0 my setup was like you said - use fill set to white, a black sol= id at the bottom of each layer using solid composite, then using the lighte= n blending and it works and gives me the max of the alpha area and not comb= ining alpha. placing on top of the mattes an adj with set matte set to lumi= nance to convert everything to alpha and then unmult effect gives me perfec= t alpha, and on top of that I place the footage with preserve underlying tr= ansparency and I get everything without precomposing :)




On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 2:06 AM Robert Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv>= ; wrote:
oh... yes. An idea to get an Max combined matte as Brian mention,= is to fill all your layers RGB with white and the transparent with black (= Solid Composite set to black), use the Lighten blend mode (works like an Ma= x operator) on all these layers to get your new combined B/W matte. Add an = adjustment layer over all these layers with an Unmult effect (get the Mekaj= iki version), then lastly add your original layer on top over all these set= to Preserve Underlying Transparency.


Den fre. 10. jan. 2020 = kl. 00.11 skrev Ross Shain <AE-List@media-motion.tv>:
If you happen to ha= ve Primatte Studio (in Continuum) - this is a great keyer that can handle t= ransparencies and includes the Mocha masking=C2=A0internally - so you could= mix and masks layers with varying=C2=A0opacity=C2=A0in the one layer.=C2= =A0

When I read this thread, I was reminded of my = earlier days in node-based compositing, where it is very useful to pipe you= r mattes into math comps to combine=C2=A0and keep separate=C2=A0from your f= ill, then bring it all back together. Node-based systems like NUKE or Fusio= n really are=C2=A0great for this type of compositing. I am sure you could e= mulate this with AE and channel your masks/mattes separately in their own p= re-comps and than combine it all together.=C2=A0

On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 15:41= , Robert Kjettrup <AE-List@media-motion.tv> wrote:
If the mask work is not t= oo complicated to quickly do again in mocha, then you could do all the mask= s with linked masks there, and via the Mocha plugin=C2=A0get the animated m= ask paths to copy to the masks on the original layers?

b= ut 2 antialiased edges right next to eachother will still not get you a 100= % tight edge, 50% alpha=C2=A0+ 50% alpha does not equal 100% alpha. But the= n you maybe could use the Add Alpha blendmodes to get better merge of the m= asks.
This is a case where it actually=C2=A0would be useful to ha= ve the option to render masks an un-anti-aliased (guess that is called alia= sed :-P) to get 100% pixel perfect=C2=A0merge of mask alphas.
I dont know if it can be used for your case, but maybe a bit of= rethinking of the setup and you could do the keying on 1 layer but using t= he masks as Effect Masks instead?=C2=A0

Robert


Den tor. 9. jan. 2020 kl. 10.28 skrev Roei Tzoref <AE-List@media-moti= on.tv>:
<= div>
Thx Mike, Having a stencil from them for my RGB doesn= =E2=80=99t solve my Alpha channel problem.=C2=A0

Let me explain it in another way:

I am creating different mattes with semi transparent ar= eas in the overlapping and that causes a problem because the create multipl= ication of the alpha information

The idea= l way to fix this is if the mask could be perfectly adjacent to one another= the same way a mask on =E2=80=9Cadd=E2=80=9D and its duplicate on =E2=80= =9Csubtract=E2=80=9D work. Only that I have more than 2 masks.

On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 9:41 Mike Abbott <AE-List@media-motion.tv>= ; wrote:

Could you add a further copy of= the original footage on top of all your keyed layers and enable ' pres= erve underlying transparency' ?



--

Ross Shain
Chief Product Officer / Bus= iness=C2=A0Development
Boris FX |=C2=A0borisfx.com
mobile: +1.646.298.6458










--

Ross Shain
Chief Product Officer / Bus= iness=C2=A0Development
Boris FX |=C2=A0borisfx.com
mobile: +1.646.298.6458








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